Dyed-in-the-wool Digital boy wants a turntable.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by toddrhodes, Dec 8, 2015.

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  1. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Last night was magical. I don't know how else to put it and frankly I'm at a loss as to how to describe why, exactly. Here's what I listened to, in roughly the order I listened to it:

    Maroon 5, Songs About Jane - still love the sonics on here but @Bill Hart is right, the pressing isn't good.
    Fleetwood Mac - Rumours (side 1)
    GNR Illusion 2 (side 3)
    ZZ Top - Tres Hombres (side 2)
    Supertramp - Crime of the Century (side 1)
    Pearl Jam - Ten*
    Metallica - Ride the Lightning

    *This is when it started to sink in. Normally I surf the Internet while I listen. I talk on here, or three or four other forums, I research ND football, new car reviews, audiogon, etc... Around about Ten side 1, I put my laptop down and didn't open it again until this morning. I just sat in my chair and enjoyed music until 2 am. As I said before, I'm having a hard time nailing down the specifics of why last night was as magical as it was but it really kicked into high gear on Pearl Jam Ten - Alive. I had been enjoying everything immensely up to this point but as I'm sitting there pounding away on my keyboard during "Once," the first track on Ten, Alive kicked in and it was as if I was hearing it for the first time. Not hyperbole, not trying to be dramatic, but there was some quality to the music that drew my attention into it, not just "at it" and that's when I closed the lid on my laptop and didn't open it again for anything beyond an email check until this morning.

    The best way I can describe what I experienced is to say the instruments and vocals were so clearly intelligible in their own space, it was as if I forgot I was in a room in my basement. I think that for the first time I started to put together what "texture" means in audio terms. Vocals have been fantastic with the Dyna 20x2 because they take on a shape and size now, not just a tone or pitch. Bass guitars now seem to jump out of the mix more, and not just their sound but where they belong in the stage, the dynamics of how they were played, and how they plot the course for the rhythm and lead guitars which overpower them in the mix, but no longer crowd the bass guitar out of the mix entirely.

    And then there are those lead guitars. Always my favorite instrument. But generally I connect more with them than vocals and percussion. Last night I heard parts of songs I hadn't ever heard before and it's not necessarily because they were buried in the mix or they were drowned out by something else. The small details now pop out like they did on my quietest digital rig - the background no longer hides these events. This could be a singer's very subtle vibrato or a chord change mixed in with a dozen other sonic events that I was unable to focus on, like the center who pancake blocks his opposing nose tackle but you didn't even see it because the running back went for a 75 yard touchdown.

    It's as if I can see the entire field better now than I could before. I can focus on specific instruments but doing so doesn't disable my periphery like before.

    And then there's that oft-cited, hardly understood (by me) and over-analyzed word: magic. It's the impact of the music not just on my ears but on my body. It's a connection or bond that I'm able to get closer to what I'm hearing, emotionally. Hardcore objectivists are most assuredly rolling their eyes right now. And that's fine. Like I said, I don't know how to describe it. I'm not learned in instruments, song structure, chord progressions, my musical intellect beyond just listening is incredibly basic, so I'm left with this vague and ambiguous term to describe that which I don't understand (magic). Frankly I don't care why it happens or what medium delivers it, but I know when I get lost in music and forget about time or listening to see what needs to be tweaked. And that's what happened last night. There was no turntable or azimuth or surface noise or IGD or first reflection point absorption. There was just me and Eddie and Mike or James, Lars, Cliff and Kirk.

    And we had a ****ing blast last night.
     
    SirMarc, druboogie, JimSpark and 8 others like this.
  2. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Awesome!!!!
     
  3. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Bold statement forthcoming:

    Side 1 of Richard Marx S/T might be one of the best complete sides of an LP in my collection so far. And that's with a noisy copy. Doesn't matter. My goodness.
     
    harby likes this.
  4. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    This is great to share! I am enjoying your enthusiasm : )
     
  5. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Home sick with the flu today, or at least that's what it felt like until I slept another 6 hours and got my behind up and out of bed. Good thing about staying home, now that I'm functional, is I can crank the system as much as I want!

    Anyway, been a fun day of vinyl:

    The Black Keys - Brothers
    Tool - Lateralus (pic disc, and the best table in the world can't salvage this BS. At least I lasted one whole song this time.)
    Machine Head - Unto the Locust
    Guns N Roses - Appetite for Destruction (2008 reissue)
    Rush - Moving Pictures 200g

    Just finishing up Moving Pictures now. This stereo system makes listening more of an "event" than just playing back some tunes. Immediately I can hear a much deeper sense of space on this album, to what I'm used to. Sonically it just lights up the room. Each drum "thwack" is heard and felt, and it doesn't just stop when it hits the drum head. The bass is controlled but plentiful and the toms pan from extreme right to extreme left on drum fills.

    Even as I put it on the platter, I said to myself... time to buckle up for this one :)

    Oh and this table just surpassed my old digital setup in terms of resolution and background - there is this tiny little moment in Vital Signs where you can hear a finger on a guitar string, I think it's at around 2:30 or so, as the song transitions to the next phrase (or whatever the term is). With my digital setup *cranked* I could hear this part and figure out where it happened in space. The Concept was unable to find this detail no matter how loud I had it. The Classic 2 just resolved it, easily, and I'm not "cranked" by any means. Loud, I suppose, but very comfortable.
     
  6. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Did a little maintenance on the table this afternoon:

    White lithium grease on the platter bearing
    One drop of oil at the motor bushing
    Boiled the belt for 20 seconds

    Also polished the platter with a polishing cloth I have. Buffed with paper towels and finished with some lint-free kitchen rags I have.
     
  7. MikeK

    MikeK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minneapolis
    I too enjoy working from home every once and a while which usually results into a day to trying to work while spinning records all day!
     
  8. BryanB

    BryanB New Member

    Location:
    Ft.Garland, CO
    Wow. The widely varied opinions in the audio world never cease to amaze me. Problem is, most of it is BS. The fidelity and "completeness" of the source recording has never been better than on vinyl. In fact, each subsequent digital innovation results in greater loss. That said, vinyl must be clean, and unabused. It also must be played on quality gear. When done properly, nothing compares, and it is not rocket science as some of the previous posters seem to suggest. If you are serious about music (not just having the latest gizmos) then you cannot do better than vinyl, period. Dont be discouraged by the trolls.
     
    royzak2000 and mreeter like this.
  9. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Do you mean that advances such as high resolution digital and DSD/SACD actually result in less detail? A less complete signal? Seriously? I don't think this is true.
     
  10. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Hi Bryan, I appreciate the encouragement but I have to ask... to what post(s) are you referring? This entire thread has been pretty much troll-free, in fact it's been an absolute blast to take part in.

    I've also been extremely careful not to actually compare digital to analog - yes I do have digital versions of albums I now own against which I can compare, or CDs of vinyl I now own that I again can compare, but I've tried to only state my preferences, not any absolute statements about which format is "better." I know you weren't referring to me in your post, just wanted to be clear that I haven't - and will not - one day post "That's it, no more digital for me!" But, it is rather telling that I haven't even had access to digital music for a week in my audio room, I have its replacement ready to go, and I can't really be bothered with it ;)

    @PhilBiker if I had to guess, he is most likely referring to the advent of MP3 and now streaming, both of which are/were lossy digital technologies. Now you have TIDAL and MQA (review is up on computeraudiophile for MQA) and even things like 4x DSD and such that seek to reverse those trends but he isn't wrong that after the CD, the next "big things" were actually net losses in quality, at least if I'm sticking to things like MP3, Satellite Radio, and free streaming services.

    But I'm making some big assumptions there, obviously.

    Edit - and I did not mention DVD-A or SACD (or even HDCD) which were big steps forward in digital playback.
     
    PhilBiker likes this.
  11. Michael Ries

    Michael Ries Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    Glad you're enjoying the new table! I'm sure the classic 2 is the superior table, but I wonder how much you're hearing is due to the dynavector cart. Would be interesting to hear your impressions with the same cart on the Concept.
     
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  12. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    You very well could be right. With that said, the Maestro Wood MM cart I was using on the concept is, on paper, the "better" cart. It's also more costly. But I know how terrible it is to try a comparison based on those things, so I wouldn't try, just pointing them out.

    Additionally, if my idea that the Classic 2 is "mechanically" quieter, that could reveal more detail by virtue of a lower noise floor. Then you have the 10.5" arm which should be helping with reducing tracking errors (might not be the proper terms?)

    Either way, I would have liked to hear both vice versas - Maestro on the Classic, and Dyna on the Concept, but the first option is a poor match and the second just isn't something I'm willing to put the effort into, lol :)
     
  13. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Random question. Any of you guys run any basic kind of power filters with your TT's. You know, like the ones you can buy at the hardware store?
     
    toddrhodes likes this.
  14. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    I don't but based on my room layout I have to plug mine into a "strip" so I use an ISOBar which has been fine in the past. Not sure that's really what you're asking though.

    Got some vinyl in the mail today, should be a good night of listening:
    [​IMG]

    Kind of Blue is a NM 180g reissue from the classifies here
    Kill 'Em All is the Music for Nations French pressing (Bennett records or something like that?)
    DSOTM is an A2-B3 stamper UK pressing
    Wish you were Here is a UK release, not sure if it's a first press though.
     
    PhilBiker likes this.
  15. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Well, ****. DSOTM is great in parts and unlistenable in others. Sucks as it was graded VG+ here in the classifieds. But, I've never heard Money quite like THAT before. So! I will find a better overall copy, I'm sold on this actual pressing (like I wouldn't have been anyway).

    Wish you were Here is not a UK release, it's a US release but it crushes the version I already had, however it too has some issues that I think I can clean out once I get everything @Bill Hart and I talked about the other day.

    Kill 'em All - yes. It is what I thought it would be - clean, in your face, clear as a bell in terms of instrument separation and tonality, and it just begs to be cranked. I can't right now, but I will. Oh I will.

    Kind of Blue is next!
     
  16. deniall

    deniall Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Australia
    I started reading through this thread but can't possibly get through 29 pages. Could the OP provide a brief summary about what went on?
     
  17. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    brief timeline:

    0 - 34 years and 1 month: I've listened to digital music in some form or fashion. I'd heard turntables, even gave one a shot in 2013, I think, but bought rubbish vinyl and rightly (given the circumstances) felt that digital was easier AND sounded better to me.

    0 - 34 years, one month and 5 days: I (with a lot of help) built some DIY monitors and constructed a listening room in my basement. I acquired very good DACs along the way and built an Audio-specific PC. I have a digital library that is about 1 TB and ranges from redbook FLAC up to 24/192 FLAC. I noticed - very good digital isn't so easy. The listening room gave me a space to really focus on music. I wanted more. I also had all along wanted to eventually add a turntable to the room. My digital setup was carefully procured and implemented. I knew I had to do the same for vinyl so I created this thread.

    Early December '15 - bought a ClearAudio Concept turntable on Agon, BNIB. I had hit up a record store a few days prior and bought 7 or 8 LPs. Pretty much standards: Crime of the Century, Moving Pictures, OK Computer, Live at Leeds, etc...

    Slightly less early December '15 - Ok, this actually sounds pretty good. Like, better than I expected good. Bought more LPs.

    Mid-late December '15 - GOD$#$^it @*&*^$ you #$*&%^#$%*^% what did you just *&#$^!!@ do? I bent my stylus in an effort to swipe some dust off my table. Bought more LPs

    Late December '15 - Mid January '16 - set a Guinness World Record for "number of searches on 'ClearAudio Concept setup' per hour per day, weighted" in an effort to get back to "stock sound." Bought more LPs

    Mid January '16 - bought a gently used ClearAudio cartridge. All was right with the world. My dogs started cooking us dinner, my 18 month-old daughter learned crochet and makes all of our clothing now, and my wife encouraged me to buy still more LPs. Sold my digital rig. Bought more LPs with recouped money from digital rig.

    Late January '16 - present - found a deal I could not pass up on a VPI Classic 2 turntable. Built a wall shelf for it. Bought more LPs, one sucked.

    That about sums it up. Thanks for interrupting my LP shopping tonight, @deniall

    :)
     
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  18. deniall

    deniall Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Australia
    Haha wow.. That was an entertaining read. Glad we have another early Metallica fan here.. Good luck in your shopping.
     
    toddrhodes likes this.
  19. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    I'm really a fan of both phases, with a preference toward the early stuff but I wouldn't want to live in a world without Load (yes I'm serious).

    Glad you liked it, I tried to capture both the low and high points and inject a little humor :) Thankfully (to my debit card) I'm actually not shopping tonight.


    /but i'm going to my first record show this Sunday. Dear God, help me (to my debit card).
     
    PhilBiker likes this.
  20. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    FWIW, the bestestes WYWH's that I have heard, UK or US, have a lightly etched HTM in the wax. Some early US pressings used UK mastering (HTM), albeit not always on both sides. And another big thumbs up for the Japan Mastersound pressing, just seems more airy and detailed to my ears.
    Great album no matter what pressing you prefer though!
     
  21. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Just quit screwing around and get the 2011 releases. That particular WYWH may be the best sounding record I own. DSOM right there as well.
     
    PhilBiker likes this.
  22. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    I have the 40th DSOTM, I do quite like it. I'll need to A/B "money" on both as that sounds fine on either LP. Didn't realize the 11 WYWH was also something to grab. The 40th DSOTM has a bad rap in some circles, I don't quite get that.
     
  23. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    FWIW there are extremely fantastic SACD releases of both of these albums.
     
  24. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    So, in my house I have:
    Toshiba NON-TO CD (FLAC)
    MOFI UHQR (FLAC)
    40th LP
    A2-B3 stamper UK LP
    SACD release

    I haven't listened to the Toshiba and the MOFI in quite awhile and my digital rig isn't even setup in my room anymore so comparing on the same system isn't possible right now. I will give them a run on the upstairs system though since I think I have Time and Money burned into my brain from the UK and 40th LP now.

    Between the 40th and UK, it just depends on what sound you prefer. To compare the two is almost like comparing two different albums IMO. The UK version sounds more "tubey" if that puts it succinctly. It's warm, guitar tones are quite pleasing to my ear, the spacing and three-dimensionality of it is there in spades. The 40th, to me, presents more of a "wall of sound" approach but yet doesn't extend out like the UK. Guitars are less heavy, more tipped up, and just the clocks and cash register effects barely sound similar. The 40th, I would describe as "more crisp, clean, but sterile sounding" by comparison. That's NOT to say it sounds bad. For me, it's the UK LP all day, even going back to those many many nights I spent with the SACD version on my digital setup. I don't recall the MOFI needledrop being anything special, on digital, compared to the SACD, for what it's worth.
     
  25. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Listening to the SACD now (24/96 FLAC) - yea, this one is damn good too (for what I like).
     
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