eBay sales Tube Receiver Pilfering

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by allied333, Feb 11, 2018.

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  1. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    I don't understand why so many find this practice so offensive. It's not the same as parting out an otherwise intact unit, and it doesn't inherently compromise its appearance or capability.

    Unless otherwise stated, I would never assume that the tubes in an eBay tube amp are "good," and if they are good, well that's a nice bonus.
     
  2. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Now that's disgusting; suggesting that businesses are cutthroat. As a business, I can tell you that I have been screwed over mostly by audiophiles and hobbyists in my time buying and selling gear both privately and in business. Your logic is warped. Businesses have to deliver good products at fair prices to survive. That's not Karma, that's economics 101. I hardly ever get less than what I bargained for from a reputable business. I often catch individual sellers trying to pass all types of garbage and scams. Not just out of ignorance, but out of arrogance and greed. There are also some slimy businesses, but they are much more rare, and are operated by slimy individuals. It's not business itself that's bad. In fact my business does a lot of good for the audio community by keeping vintage gear working and by proving new gear and all types of support. If you are pissed at a particular seller, then so be it, but don't start trashing everyone based on some flawed logic.
    -Bill
     
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  3. krlpuretone

    krlpuretone Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grantham, NH
    This is hardly new - people have been doing that on Ebay for at least 15 years.

    Unless you know the particular usage of an item, it doesn't matter much either way.

    There's no point to leaving old tubes in an amplifier that hasn't been fired up for at least 30 years, as the tubes will probably go kablammo without a Variac....
     
  4. Night Version

    Night Version Forum Resident

    Location:
    Texas
    If the item is advertised as “no tubes included” or “no guarantees on tubes” —- then price and bid appropriately. Nobody’s getting screwed so long as all is transparent on the listing.

    If items are advertised as “tubes included” but shows up stripped.... that’s a different story.
     
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  5. Night Version

    Night Version Forum Resident

    Location:
    Texas
    Tubes wear out. They are a consumable. Does every used car come with a full tank of gas with brand new tires?
     
  6. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    So then you actually do part-out vintage gear yourself. The only difference is that you don’t do it on eBay, and you feel that makes it okay because you’re a dedicated vintage audio hobbyist.

    Well . . . you’re right! But I don’t think that any of your alarm makes the position or prospective attitude of any particular eBay seller any more or less valid than your own.

    You seem to have it stuck in your thinking that the only way to deal with or care for or consider vintage audio gear is your way. I’m not sure that flies around here (or in most other forums either). There’s absolutely nothing wrong with your way - nobody is suggesting or stating any such thing - but I think lobbying to impose it on faceless sellers on eBay or anywhere else is a losing proposition, IMO.

    If you’ve only just now discovered that some parts of eBay resemble a snake-infested swamp from time to time, then you may be somewhat behind the curve on the subject. eBay has provided an immense and still-growing platform for people in any part of the planet to sell everything from banana keepers to parted-out electronics to fur-covered dildos, and you’re acting aghast at the inappropriateness of one tiny part of it all? It’s a bit of a waste of energy, IMO, but maybe I’m just insensitive about such things. I certainly respect the hobby and your obvious dedication to it, no doubt about it.

    eBay is not responsible for damaging anybody’s hobby interests. As a matter of fact, whether or not you like the notion of parted-out vintage electronics or not, eBay (among other sites) has facilitated access to otherwise unobtainable parts and whatnot over the years, and continues to do so. You can’t have that without also encountering the other stuff you don’t like.

    Lots and lots of people search high and low for vintage tubes. So where do you (or anyone else) think a lot of vintage tubes originate? A huge percentage of them come from vintage tuners, amps and receivers. The tubes are removed, cleaned up and sold as either “gently used” or “new old stock” or some other such B.S. Inexperienced audiophiles who haven't yet fully learned the tube business aspect of vintage and new audio, accept it all quite readily. When vintage tube sellers accumulate enough chassis, they put them up for sale, sans tubes, or with the cheapest tubes they can find.

    This has been going on for forty-five years or more.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
    62caddy likes this.
  7. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    This is a strange conversation to me. Disgust over someone selling a piece of old gear with no tubes? Pilfering? That seems like a bizarre reaction. It's a used piece of gear in a flea market kind of situation, it comes it the condition it comes in, and it should be priced accordingly. If it doesn't have tubes, if it's never had a cap job or any other kind of servicing, etc., it should sell at a discount based on the cost of replacement tubes and routine maintenance. Plus, as others have said, 50 year old tubes in a piece of vintage gear on eBay? Probably they're shot anyway. intage equipment with original tubes in good condition? Good luck. And expect to pay a premium for it. A tube is a disposable part that fails over time in normal use. It's like tires on a car or something. You want a '68 Mustang with 100K miles on the original tires and breaks? Tube like tires and break pads are wear parts.
     
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  8. Mike from NYC

    Mike from NYC Senior Member

    Location:
    Surprise, AZ
    As I noticed lately many prices on eBay are over the top for many bits of audio gear and I laugh at the poor sucker who doesn't do research.

    Caveat emptor
     
  9. Your whole post is a great depiction of personal value.
    You see value in the whole piece, especially if that piece is still factory original...working or not.
    Others see value in the parts that people pay for.
    This boils down to how are you going to play the game. Will you capitalize on the potentially good old gear that has been stripped of its "proper" tubes. Will you lament the dismantling of the old gear itself? Will you simply be more specific in your potential purchases and limit them to gear that is "valuable" to you?
    No answer is the correct answer for they are all valid, but your choice will determine how you deal with this long standing way of operating.
    Parting things out is not new in the least.

    I will admit to not liking those who part things in a destructive or wasteful manner.
    Some will trash surrounding gear to get at the good stuff. Others will throw away gear rather than give it to an interested party. Still others will gather, hoard, and NEVER use 157 of the same exact thing while absolutely not being able to sell, donate, gift, or throw away any of those items.
    Personal value is just that...personal.
     
  10. inperson

    inperson Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    I have an old Harman Kardon tubed receiver I bought on ebay over 15 years ago. It's just a so so receiver but if I sold it I would not be selling it with the 5 Telefunken 12ax7's that was in it when I got it.

    Back when I bought it I just wanted a tubed receiver that wasn't expensive. It wasn't until years later that I found out that there were Telefunkens in it.
     
  11. inperson

    inperson Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    I would think it the transformer would go "kablammo" first before the tubes.
     
  12. Guitarded

    Guitarded Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana

    ...or, not.

    The caps aren't gonna be good / reliable. Your tubes might not last 10 hours. It's a crap shoot.
     
  13. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    As a man that likes to buy old tubes, I’m all for it.

    I will say that parting out an original in great condition feels like mistake but that’s not common.
     
  14. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    The original caps check good. I replace them anyways. After 5000 hours use on these tubes, I will get back with you.
     
    krlpuretone likes this.
  15. krlpuretone

    krlpuretone Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grantham, NH
    Caps would probably fry up the power tubes but it'd all happen in a hurry...
     
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  16. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile Thread Starter

    Location:
    nowhere
    Why not keep the Telefunken. Just replace them with cheap
    Actually power supply caps do not harm tubes in the least if they fail.
     
  17. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    C'mon. I guess I'm a socialist then..:wave::shrug:
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  18. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    Even if the original tubes were practically new, they are only the "right" tube for the amp if they suit the buyer's taste and set of components. Tube selection is part of the game. I would prefer a cheaper amp without tubes so I don't have to deal the added complication and/or expense of dealing with "wrong" sounding tubes, tubes of unknown state of wear, etc.
     
  19. Night Version

    Night Version Forum Resident

    Location:
    Texas
    Seems so. If the tubes have additional value beyond inclusion with the component then it’s perfectly reasonable for seller to maximize his or her return.

    Especially now with the “tube rolling”. Buyer can determine if Tube inclusion is priority or not.
     
  20. inperson

    inperson Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    That's what I was saying. But I'd probably replace them with some old tubes of the same era just not the Telefunken's. I most likely would never sell the receiver just because it isn't worth much.
     
  21. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    I don't see why the interested party could not contact the seller to see if the seller has either the original or another set of tubes that could be included in the purchase at a negotiated price. It just might not be in the interest of the seller to bundle the purchase of the tubes and the amplifier, for purposes of offering the product, but, that can be overcome with the right incentive.

    As someone noted above, they had no intention of selling an HK receiver with its five Telefunken 12AX7s. That is a great example. There are a lot of people who would pay a LOT of money for those tubes (particularly because they seem to last forever), but, there are probably and equal number of people who dislike the sound of those tubes and would not buy the receiver if they had to pay the market price for inclusion of those tubes. It is better to sell the two separately.

    Sadly, sometimes breaking something up into parts increases the total amount one can get in the market. It doesn't make much sense, but, that is the case. As beautiful as an old Western Electric 753 speaker is, one can get more by selling the cabinet, drivers and crossover as separate parts. I can see why someone would do that to maximize return.
     
  22. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    who. cares.
     
    rischa likes this.
  23. qwerty

    qwerty A resident of the SH_Forums.

    I think this is a bit harsh. There is a steep learning curve about valves, tube-rolling, the equipment and the marketplace for someone new to it. They don't get what they deserve when they are sold equipment which has been deliberately presented in a way the implies or misleads them on the use or cost to make useable. There are consumer laws to prevent business with this conduct, however many seem to be able to get away with it on online sales places.
     
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  24. qwerty

    qwerty A resident of the SH_Forums.

    I recall a classic example of parting-out audio equipment on ebay a while ago. The seller was selling a vintage cutting lathe, and asking a hefty price for it. He also parted-out the cutting head from it, and had a hefty price for it on another listing. Each was unusable without the other, esp. as the fittings were unique to that item. And it's not like buying a cartridge for a turntable - there is not a supply of cutting heads which can be purchased new now. I understand people need to make a living, and that a reasonable profit is part of doing business. But I do find blatant greed very unattractive.
     
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