Elliptical can be very good!

I guess I learned a lesson I though I'd share.

Last night I thought my 2M Black was sounding a bit strange. After a severe IGD with an old used record I decided to try my 2M Blue that was in the drawer for the last months. I simply put the Blue stylus in the Black cartridge. No IGD. My conclusion is that I wore out the Black. I probably damaged it trying to clean it. Whatever.

What impressed me is how good the 2M Blue stylus sounded in the 2M Black cartridge!

Some months ago I made up my mind that elliptical styli suck and that I would never go back to them. Well, I was wrong.

So today I decided to try some more records and the elliptical stylus sounded very good. Then a few minutes ago I dug up my old Nagaoka MP-110 and tried it. Surprisingly good too!

I tell you: IME, the Black does more of the audiophiles tricks we usually enjoy, specially bringing up micro details in the higher frequencies, letting dynamics jump, and providing more air/space. It really is more impressive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is as good as the Blue or the Nagaoka or that I can't hear a difference. Of course I can.

But the music that comes from the elliptical definitely does not sound the mess I thought they would. I remember them with different phono, amp and speakers, and had never tried them more seriously with my current system. I'm surprised. To say that they have less micro details, less air/space, relatively rolled-off highs and maybe a bit less dynamics is true. However, the differences, while noticeable, are not so important as to make elliptical impossible to enjoy in comparison. Both the Nag MP-110 and the 2M Blue sound with very good instrument separation, detail and dynamics. And both are very musical.

Maybe I'm less sophisticated than I thought I was. Maybe it's the kind of music I mostly listen to (almost only rock - Danzig self-titled is playing now, The Cure Acoustic Hits played before it - and a bit of blues, reggae and jazz, no classical/symphony). Maybe the 2M Black is not so good to be a real challenge to elliptical carts. Maybe it's my ears, brain, or the air in my room these days.

Or maybe elliptical can be really good after all.

 

Ya, and if you want a nice big soundstage with an elliptical, try a Denon DL-110. Very musical as well.
Not very friendly with less than perfect records though. Super on new vinyl.

 

A couple of things. First you the Blue is a nude elliptical, which I bet that most were not back in they day. I'm guessing that most sold years back were bonded and not as good. After all, the Blue is a nice improvement over the Red, which is not very impressive at all.

Second, you are using the Blue on the engine that was designed for the Bronze and Black stylus, so it is just not the blue stylus by itself. You are talking about a first class MM cartridge body and that says a lot.

I have an RP6 with the Exact cart and a vintage Thoren's with the Bronze and Black stylus. The next system that I am going to put together is a vintage tube system. So I thought that I would buy a Blue stylus for just that reason.

Obviously, the Bronze and the Black are exceptional cartridges and I do listen to a lot of vintage vinyl with both of them and it does sound good. But some records that I remember liking are so awful over detailed that I can't stand to listen to them.

So while modern remarkable gear may be remarkable with older recordings, that is not always the case. If you are looking for a true vintage sound, then you need true vintage or vintage type equipment.

Which translates down to "not using a Shibata stylus"!

One of our member's has some nice EK84 tube gear and his preference is the Blue Stylus.

 

You're right about the Blue in the Black body. I didn't mean to say anything about the original Blue, or about the cartridge, just something about the specific stylus shape: removing a nude shibata and putting a nude elliptical in the Black cartridge had a less drastic effect than what I was expecting.

I'll probably buy a Bronze stylus to replace the Black.

 

I have no idea what is being suggested here. Are we suggesting a conical stylus might be better than an ellipical? Then there is a suggestion that a microline stylus isn't worth the added expense. This has not been my experience.

 

Very similar impressions when comparing my old blue and current om4o FG stylus on an ortofon pro s Concorde body (the KAB package). The 40 is easily more audiophile but the blue has a very pleasant, musical cohesive sound that is great on all sorts of recordings, plays solid on more used vinyl, and is not embarrassed at all by my fancier stylus.

 

I'm saying that my elliptical styli sound better than I remembered them and than I thought they would. I'm surprised.

I'm not suggesting anything about conical stylus because I've never had one.

I'm also not suggesting that a microline is not worth the added expense comparing to an elliptical. That is up to you, your tastes and your money. Me, I think it worth it, so I'm planning to buy a Bronze (fine line) to replace the Blue (elliptical) that is sitting now where the Black (shibata) used to be. The Blue will be back to where it was, but now I know I have a very good back up, much better than what I was expecting when I took it out the drawer last night.

I hope that makes sense.

By the way, even though the Nagaoka MP-110 sounds good, the Blue/Black Frankenstein is better by a margin.

 

The 2M Blue and the Nagaoka MP-110 are my two main cartridges too, and the Shure M95HE and SC35C get a lot of playing time too. I probably could afford a better cartridge but can manage only 1-2 hours a week of critical listening time, so whatever I would gain would be lost on me most of the time. All four carts are extremely enjoyable and never disappoint. I have so many VG to VG- records that would never get played with a better cart/stylus. I've read too many comments here from people who complain about their poorly pressed records sounding terrible with their high-end carts. I just put my SC35C on and non-fill and stitching are non-issues. So I am with you man!

 

You might try playing around with stylus rake angle on the Black stylus with its line-contact stylus. At a high-end show a few years back, Michel Fremer told me that if you don't set the stylus rake angle of a line-contact stylus with extreme precision, you'll get better sound with an elliptical. By extreme precision, he meant using one of those fancy USB digital microscopes he uses to assure a precise 92-degree stylus rake angle. More info below.

How to Use a USB Digital Microscope to set 92 Degree Stylus Rake Angle (SRA)

-Bob

 

Thanks but it's not that. My Black shibata played beautifully for the last few months. Then it started to sound weird. And then IGD. I believe I damaged it while cleaning it. To the garbage can it goes, I'm not risking my records. Will probably buy a Bronze now. In the mean time the elliptical Blue stylus is doing a great job.

 

As I've always known, changing to a different stylus will almost always result in a different sound. That different sound can be better or worse but it is your perception which counts and what sounds best to you. Many different cartridges of a particular brand often use the same body or internals.
I have been recording hundreds of records to a hard drive. I use several different cartridges to get the best sound out of what I am recording at the time. I had mostly been using a Shure M97xe but found it brought out too much definition, including more ticks and pops. I experimented using a Shure M24H, which was designed for discrete quadraphonic records, with it's Hyperbolic diamond stylus. With it's extended frequency range, I found it a monumental mistake to use it to play anything other than discrete quadraphonic records. The cartridge literature states that it could be used to play all stereo and mono records, but with even more defects in a record apparent, I stopped using it.
I have decided to use the Shure M97xe on newer and so-called "audiophile" records, where it realizes it's true calling. For older microgroove records, stereo and mono, I use a Pickering NP/AC cartridge which has a conical stylus. It has a higher output than many magnetic cartridges, so I have to reduce the levels. For many years, records were cut with the conical stylus in mind because it was one of the most common style of stylus. RCA Victor took it one step further. It's "Dynagroove" records were cut specifically for a conical stylus and playing those with anything other than a conical stylus is not going to sound that great.
When you talk about IGD, more often than not, it comes down to the mastering of the record. Different masters of the same record can have IGD or not have IGD. Proper stylus alignment is a given. Stylus wear can definitely be a factor. A quality stylus should have an indefinite lifespan. Just for the heck of it, I removed the stylus from my Shure M97xe cartridge, which has hundreds of hours on it, and replaced it with a brand new out of the box genuine Shure stylus. I played several different records and could not detect a difference, so I put the old stylus back. A few times I have experienced IGD on records that played perfectly before. I removed the headshell and inspected the stylus under a stylus scope. A ball of dust had accumulated virtually hiding the stylus. After cleaning, it played beautifully and the IGD was gone.

 

You should consider the KAB concordes with om styli:

KAB Electro Acoustics http://www.kabusa.com

They work perfectly with the GR, and essentially alignment is already set at an “ideal” 52mm. Great value too compared to the 2m series.

 

This. I much prefer these to the 2M line, and for almost half the price.

 

Yah. I was originally looking at a 2m black, but the KAB concorde equivalent is like half the cost and by most user accounts, the Fritz Geyger stylus is comparable (and in some cases, preferred over) to the shibata stylus.

 

I would not do that. My TT came with the Bronze and I really like it, don't get me wrong. It is a very smooth sounding musical cartridge. It is very quiet but does not produce the detail (nor the surface noise) that the Black does.

You only want to move away from the Black if your records are in such poor condition that the surface noise on the Black makes you cringe. Then the Bronze is a better choice, if you were only going to pick one.

After living with the Bronze for a while, I decided to spring for a Black. I got a good price from an eBay seller in Germany on a slightly used Black stylus for around $350, I don't recall exactly. If you do buy a stylus buy one from an eBay seller in Germany, you will get your best deal there.

All that I can say is that the moment that I put the Black stylus on, it was an OMG moment. the detail was there, the bass was so deep and the sound was positively "organic" in a way that I have never heard from a phono cartridge.

Once you try the Black, you can never go back!

The Bronze is in the middle between the Blue and the Bronze. But that is with the Blue cartridge body and I bet anything that with the Bronze body, the Blue stylus will step up and be counted.

I think that you will be more pleased with having the Blue and the Black and leaving the Bronze in the middle out. It is QUIET, but not as much detail, which is not necessarily a bad thing!

Another alternative that I have learned about is that Ortofon had the OM line before the 2M line. The OM40 cart is no longer available, but the stylus is! The OM40 stylus is a Fritz Gyger stylus, which is a type of stylus cut that is similar to a Shibata, but it is a more modern stylus design. As I understand it, you can pick up an OM40 stylus for way less than the Black and have a similar experience. It will look a bit odd, but it will fit the Black body perfectly like it was an older OM series.

Here is a YouTube video comparing the Black to the OM40 Fritz Gyger stylus. Not that I am all that fond of making audio comparisons on YouTube video's, but this one seems to have some excellent audio quality(Buy the OM40 from Germany).

I think that if and when my black wears out, I am going to buy an OM40 as a replacement myself.

 

OM 40, or Concorde Pro S with 40 Stylus like those sold by KAB are great sound and value. The FG70 is better than a shibata...smaller side radius and longer contact patch. Sounds better too, as evidenced by the video above.

 

i have a hana elliptical and i'm very impressed with the tracking and playback.

 

Ya, I am interested in the Hana carts. I have had some AT and Denon carts (which have been great,) but I would like to try something new.

 

For a Fritz Gyger profile I would suggest the Goldring 1042.

 

This surprises me, I didn't think the M97xe was that resolving. I should give it a try, there are a few still available here and I suppose replacing stylus should be available for some time from Jico and others.

 

The KAB Concorde with 40 Stylus and the KAB OM40 are both about the same price as the 2M Bronze replacement stylus, and I already own the body, so would be about the same. I wonder if they sound better than the Bronze. On the other hand, they are cheaper than the Black replacement stylus alone. I like the looks of the Concorde, thanks for the suggestions, I'll think about it.

 

Thanks. There's a DL-110R available here. Not sure I want to buy an MC cartridge though, the idea of not being able to replace the stylus myself makes me a bit nervous.

 

Ya, that's really the only downside I have found in this cart. I have owned 2.

 

Unfortunately no Hana or Goldring available where I live. Too expensive for an international shipment. Maybe I can try to find it when traveling.

 

I had a 2M Bronze before this. I prefer the 40 stylus by a good margin. The Bronze sounded a little harsh/grainy to me on some records...it didn’t do as well on some more heavily modulated inner grooves either.