End of LP sides question (bass)

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by eyeCalypso, Oct 8, 2017.

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  1. eyeCalypso

    eyeCalypso Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Concerning Peter Gabriel's SO album. From wiki: "[Gabriel's] original intention was to have "In Your Eyes" at the end of the record, but because of its prominent bass line, it had to be placed earlier in the listing on the vinyl edition as there is more room for the stylus to vibrate." (Note: I've always had the cassette and IYE was at the beginning of side 2 there as well)

    When the 33 1/3 record was reissued recently "In Your Eyes" was placed at the end of side 2.

    I haven't heard the reissue, but has there been advances in cutting technology that reduces the bass concern?
     
  2. eyeCalypso

    eyeCalypso Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Anyone?
     
  3. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    No new technology I am aware of.. and didn't know anything about the placement of "In Your Eyes" on the record. If the power on the cutting head is reduced to reduce groove amplitude and pitch (the angle of the groove) then I suppose the bass content would reproduce properly. I feel that many albums have the wrong cut on the last track, and that they are cut too hot.

    If the reissues are direct metal mastered, the resolution should be improved.
     
  4. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    That seems odd. Abbey Road has "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" at the end of Side 1, with a prominent bass line, and there were no problems with that.

    High frequencies can be a problem at the end of a side, not bass.
     
    The FRiNgE and Manimal like this.
  5. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Good point John O,

    While true the higher frequencies are troublesome (which I simply term, "treble range") the highest octave from 8 kHz to 16 kHz and higher, are not as problematic. The groove pitch and acceleration are more relaxed in the uppermost range due to much lower amplitude. (interactive factors are that groove pitch increases with frequency and amplitude, however lesser amplitude is the greater influence at the uppermost frequencies) The maximum groove pitch occurs in the 2 kHz to 6 kHz range (sometimes a little higher) so stylus acceleration forces will be at their highest. Certain exceptions exist where the upper register is particularly loud, such as synth music.

    Bass can be a problem, extreme bass.
    Not unheard of that a stylus can jump a groove.
    But we're just talking about regular program, so yes, bass is almost never a problem.

    While I agree also, "I Want You" is a rather demanding piece to track, has strong bass content and strong highs, any good cartridge will never have any problem tracking it. But then for the most demanding bass content, it's probably not a good idea to cut it at the inner groove. The playback acceleration forces will be increased by sharper groove pitch. The same amplitude could be cut nearer to the outer rim with far less acceleration, easier to track.

    I seriously question "In Your Eyes" qualifies as an extreme bass track... but certainly on most lower cost cartridges, it will play more cleanly in the TREBLE as a third track vs the last one.... yes!
     
  6. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    Cutting lathes do incorporate new technology to adjust the groove pitch. In olden days, when variable groove pitch became more automated than just a guy riding a knob, it was via a preview tape head that increased the groove pitch in response to coming high bass passages.

    Now, we can computer simulate the entire cutting waveform digitally and the interaction between adjacent grooves on the disc, so they can be spaced more precisely without interference.

    Bass reproduction doesn't depend on the the position on the disc, but high-frequency capabilities nearer the center are limited in amplitude, so the original claims of track positioning likely have to do with the overall volume of the track.
     
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