I'm convinced going by strict criteria rather than what is easily noticeable or what I will tolerate that most vinyl is dished. The Michell Orbe clamping system reveals that as it lifts the centre 2mm. Many albums sit flat on one side while the space above platter is 5mm or more the other side before the clamp is applied. 180 gram pressings are less malleable and less likely to flatten in storage. I have thin vinyl that was warped when new that now plays dead flat after years on a shelf.
That is hard to believe when on average I'm sure I have returned 1 in 5 over the years with the 80s having less defects. Returned for serious warping/dishing, non fill and scratches. Scratches causing repetitive clicks for more than a few revolutions has been the main problem. Also occasional misapplied labels. Can only remember one or two returned for off centre. Ad to that the number of used records that went back to sellers due to flaws and general over grading and I have used up a significant portion of my life packing and posting returns. If you add in used vinyl must have returned hundreds of records. In most cases replacements for new vinyl are fine which suggests there is a large element of chance here. There was also quite a few instances of product damaged in post. I've even received scratched CDs and ones that skip on occasion but the noticeable defect rate is pretty low.
I can entirely relate to your experiences. In fact, I am quite well known in a small satellite post office close to my work, entirely for the number of occasions I've used it solely to post back faulty / over-graded LP's. Factor in the time spent queuing up and it's a lot of wasted life as you say!
I won't return an LP if it's warped. I have a vinyl flat and it works like a charm with new vinyl. What I do not tolerate is excessively noisy records, which are plagued by ticks and non-fill or records that are pressed off center. I'm not talking about slightly off centered but the kind where your tonearm swings from side to side.
My question above was a genuine one and not prompted by a no fill/non fill term usage issue. I had heard of neither until I found this, and now I know....: This is What "Non-Fill" Looks Like
Its easy to remember all defective records and easy to overlook those good pressing we have lots of. So good pressing are possible. I have many. Its QC that needs to step up and reject bad pressing instead of sliding them in the sleeve and screwing the end user. I pay for and expect the best from an audiophile label. You think in such a delicate market they would step up QC. I see hippies buying $20 records at the mall and the scratched old records at the shows.... and not the $50+ records from MFSL, AP,etc.... Its a nice feeling when you are pulling out a great album with a perfect pressing knowing you have something special and in for a treat. You can sit back and really enjoy the experience of a good sounding record. Big defects really spoil the experience to the point of not wanting to listen to the album. Massive disappointment sets in. Yes, you got screwed again, and not in a good way. Audiophiles know their records. We know where the noise and pop are on every track it seems. Little stuff I let go and I accept if it does not take away from enjoyment. However, nothing is worse then putting on a record and waiting for the exact moment of the cringing three mega loud POP's that you tattooed in your brain. You fool yourself thinking maybe it wont be so bad this time. Maybe this stylus will be better on it, etc..... nope, still crap. So yah, what fun is that??? No thanks..... give a me good records only please. One that live up to the hype stickers about ultra high quality and sound etc....
I for one have no idea why this 180 gram stuff has resonated with people. Since way back when I have always had more trouble with thicker vinyl than thin, though I know that technically it shouldn't matter. I have wonderful vinyl at all weights. To this day if I have a choice between two used albums and one is thick and one is thin, I know the thinner vinyl is much more likely to sound better. I don't know if it's because better material is used for thinner vinyl (back pre 2000's) but I do know that the thicker stuff seemed to be regrind and it was almost always very noisy. It happened often and it can't be a coincidence. So, I get nervous now when I see all this thick stuff and much of it is a noisy mess. On the other hand, Friday Music and MFSL is audiophile sounding and it's 180 G, so I think think it just comes down to material used in the vinyl. Interesting that 180 G albums for $19.99 by hit artists are full of noise and titles that are more along the lines of reissues for $35 plus sound wonderful. Tells me there are ways to use cheaper materials and it sure is audible!
I think the extra-long drying process for the 180gram and thicker vinyls is what leads to extra noise. They have to sit around longer to dry, and in that time they pick up tons of dirt and soot, which is what you have floating around in these factories anyhow. I'm sure some plants, like Pallas, have clean areas for records to dry, but I doubt it's all that common. The thinner vinyls dry quicker, and therefore pick up less dirt/soot, therefore less noise.
THE one issue I can't live with. It's just awful and impossible to ignore. It takes you completely out of the song. I can live with a pop or click here and there, and I could care less about visual defects, but non fill means it's going back. And I didn't know what it mean't either until I read about it here. Buy I do know it's worse now than pre 2000. I suspect it's the pressure of pressing as quickly as possible. I never hear that nonsense on audiophile pressings. Nonfill to me is like listening to a cassette that hits a spot where the tape is all wrinkled from being previously eaten by the deck...I'm sure we all remember that! The tape head would hit that section and the music would just drop out or sound terrible.
I think that would only apply to warpage issues. Records get pressed and placed in boxes of 25, then sent off to distributors. It should make no difference where you buy from unless somewhere along the chain they are stored incorrectly. I am very surprised at how rare it is to get a warped record. They sit in warehouses and worse, in mail carrier trucks and then often in your mail box or porch in hot weather. A lot riding against getting flat vinyl, but that is the one complaint I rarely have.
It's strange that people think that others are over sensitive because "vinyl is not a flawless medium". Well as far as I'm concerned we are not discussing flaws that are inherent in vinyl, but flaws that should not be there because they are avoidable with due care and attention when pressing them. I do expect new vinyl to be mint/perfect and there's no reason why it should be anything less than that, other than on very rare occasions. I have a Vinyl flat to fix warps, and a unique spindle on my deck to correct off centre pressings, but I can't fix audible scratches or non-fill. Sadly vinyl produced today seems to be plagued with all of these problems and they shouldn't be.
I think this is the attitude you must have. If you do, you will be satisfied the majority of the time. If not, just don't do vinyl. You have to take the good with the bad. The good is why it can be such a rewarding experience, but those are the elements that make the medium vulnerable to issues. You have to accept both or you will drive yourself crazy. I have only seen consistent perfect pressings, for the very most part, from the expensive audiophile labels.
I am new to using a center clamp, which came with my VPI Prime. I used to think it was silly, and that only obsessive types would desire it. What a difference that one tool makes, and how wrong I was! That really eliminates a lot of potential playback issues.
Interestingly, I find that some warps are affected by how tightly I use the orbe clamp. If I really tighten it on some records, it makes the warp appear more prominent. When easing off the tightening a bit, some of these records can appear almost completely flat against the platter....weird! I guess it's the nature of the warp....? I also find it works better with the outer ring near the fixing nut always used as I think all warps appear more prominent without it...maybe it raises the height a bit more to then push the record down from? It does help quite a lot for dished records though...
Vinyl flat probably makes records also noisier - I cant see how remelting the record doesnt have impact on the sound.
Ive really toyed with the idea of getting one of these for some time. It is quite expensive once delivered to the UK though...and I'm not sure there's many in my collection that really need it. I probably have somewhere between 5-10 that I may try flattening as it stands. I tend to return badly warped records. It's not good for the cartridge and I hate looking at it. I don't think it should be that difficult to get a record reasonably flat for a pressing plant. Trouble is that many stores and warehouses don't know how to store it!
I found the same if the clamp is really tight on some records. I found that 180 gram records that won't flatten completely are even worse with the outer ring. It will work on warped thin vinyl (120 grams or less).
Personally I am sceptical of the vinyl flat both due to the heating of the grooves and getting temp right. If I went down that route I would buy one of the expensive Japanese electronic flatteners as they only heat the run in grooves and centre of the record.
That's where I left it five pages back. I have no idea why some people here are having such miserable experiences with vinyl, but after 15 pages of "don't wanna hear it"/"don't believe you", I'm just like, whatever.
The last record that I personally warped must have in 1958 when I left my 45 of the theme from The Bridge On The River Kwai in direct sunlight I have really good luck with new vinyl.
Hello, the only LPs that had anything, were used records. Factory new ones played flawless, except one that was warped, and one other, I think it had some real annoying cracks. That's a very small percentage. That's right, too. There's some records where you hear how the needle is moving through the groove. It's not clicks or pops, but a low noise of one solid body (the stylus) rubbing against another solid body (the vinyl disc). That's the normal vinyl noise, but it's at low volume so it would not be disturbing when the music sets in. That's a flawless vinyl. Some vinyl has some occasional soft clicks or pops. You hardly could call these "defects", as long as they are realy soft or at low volume. And are not disturbing as soon as the music sets in. However, if people complain when the vinyl is not 100% flawless like a CD, then they are not understanding vinyl. On the other hand, off-centers, no-fills, or really loud cracks or so, are not tolerable. These should be returned. Best regards