Entry level turntable recommendations

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Grateful Ed, May 8, 2017.

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  1. Marshall_SLX

    Marshall_SLX Rega P9/RB2000

    Sounds like the record to me... take it back to the shop and get a replacement... ive had several new 180 grams skip, be scratched, off centre then got replacements and its fine.
     
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  2. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    So the record played fine on the shop's table. Bought a bubble level - platter is perfect. Tracking force is also spot on. No matter how much I tweak the alignment it still skips in the same spot. I'm going to try putting the Carbon back on and see what happens there.

    Any chance this could be the fault of Rega's auto bias system? Could it be defective? Could the cartridge be defective?
     
  3. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    Get your eye down level with the arm when it is resting on a thick record, 180g, etc, and take a look at the cartridge lead wires behind the cartridge. One may be hanging low enough to hit the top of the Lp and cause it to skip. Other than that, it sounds like maybe something sticky on the stylus isn't letting go of a dust bunny!
    -Bill
     
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  4. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    Definitely no wires touching. My only stylus cleaning 'tool' is a magic eraser. Any other DIY tips to clean a stylus in the meantime?
     
  5. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    I use Magic Eraser myself; it's a great dry cleaning method. As long as the records played are clean, it works great. I have however, played a used Lp which must have had some gunk in a groove, maybe wax or food residue, who knows. Anyway, I had a similar problem with a stylus not tracking and then getting distortion and I could see nothing wrong with anything. I had to remove the cartridge and examine it under a microscope to see the spec of garbage that was clinging to some sticky stuff. I mean it was smaller that the tip, really invisible to the naked eye. I had to use some alcohol on a tissue or something to wipe it away with. it took several wipes and then I finished it off with the magic Eraser and it played fine after that. Saved the expense of a new cartridge.
    -Bill
     
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  6. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    Thanks, Bill. I'll try that before I put the Carbon back on. I did recently play a dirty LP (it was brand new, but the stylus had so much gunk on it after every play). The Frightnrs on Daptone - full of scuffs and grime!
     
  7. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    Well cleaning the stylus didn't help. Put the Carbon back on and no skips.. then I examined the Bias 2 and the cantilever appears slightly bent. The stylus is not perfectly perpendicular to the cartridge and is angled slightly towards the out edge of the platter which explains the skipping backwards.. looks like I'll be calling Music Direct on Tuesday.
     
  8. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    I'm just back in New York and listening to music via my Orbit Plus once more. After a few days with the OM10 stylus I received delivery of an OM20, it was $155 from turntableneedles.com. Now this was money well spent! Right away I heard a huge difference, it went from "This sounds quite good.", to "Alright!, now this is sounding REAL, and approaching what I'm used to at home from my Musuc Hall MMF-7.

    I did this comparison using my Lounge LCR MKIII phonostage with I brought with me from home this time. The difference between it and the Pluto is HUGE. In retrospect, though I was on a budget last year when I bought the Orbit Plus, I should have saved the money I spent on the built in Pluto, it's adequate enough, but I really need a whole lot more from a phono stage and the Lounge delivers big time at a very reasonable price for what you get. Even the vintage Realistic Phono stage at $20-25 on Ebay bests the Pluto.

    As for playing records directly on the acrylic platter and forgetting about a mat upgrade as a previous poster suggested, I strongly disagree. IMO a Herbie's mat is well worth the extra money.

    One other thing I did was bring along some stainless sterl spiked feet I received along with the purchase of a used CD player recently. I had been using Herbie's Tall Tenderfeet instead of the Orbit's built inrtubber feet and it helped the sound quality a great deal. But these spiked feet work even better, and I was able to use the Orbit feet's screw holes for them. These sort of spiked feet go for around $25 a set of four, so a much less expensive solution to isolation that the Tall Tenderfeet which are $64 a set.
     
  9. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Honestly - some records just don't agree with certain carts/styli. It's part of life with vinyl. This is the reason I so much appreciate an easily removable headhsell. In my office, if a record skips or sounds funny with the AT440MLa in my avatar which sounds amazing but can occasionally be finicky I just swap out the headshell for my spare with an old Stanton 737-E- with a (very old) D74S stylus. That cart never skips on anything and sounds almost as good as the MLa.
     
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  10. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I would like to know your results of the simple antiskate test. I think that "autobias" is one fixed average setting, and it could be fixed/adjusted wrong.
    The simple antiskate test is: get a Laserdisc. Any clean unscratched Laserdisc. Hopefully just $1 at a thrift shop if you don't have a Laserdisc already. It's flat plastic with no groove. Put that on your turntable, and place the stylus on it, and watch what happens at various points from the spindle. The arm/stylus should stay in place at all points from inner to outer.
    This is not a complete full 100% test of antiskate, just a rough one that checks just one thing, but it is simple and fast and cheap to do. If the arm is thrown inward or outward, there is a problem. If the arm stays in place, there could still be minor and finer adjustments that could be made - but if the arm drifts or is thrown either way, there is a problem. A $1 test for any turntable.
     
  11. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    There is nothing wrong with the arm or the records. He doesn't have any problem when he puts the Rega Carbon cartridge on it. It only skips because someone has tweaked the cantilever on the cartridge that is skipping on certain tracks. Any cartridge that has such a damaged cantilever will damage records. Performing tests with it will just damage those as well. He bought it from a mail order dealer, thinking it was new and undamaged. He is going to get a refund or exchange.
    -Bill
     
  12. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    Should anti skate really keep the stylus at a fixed point on a still record? I thought it was supposed to counteract the natural inward motion that's created from a spinning record?

    I did notice that when setting the tracking force for the Bias 2 I had a hard time keeping the stylus right on the black dot of the scale (it wanted to move outward). Does that mean anything?

    When aligning a cartridge, most instructions say set antiskate to zero. Isn't that because with antiskate properly set there will be some outward movement of the arm making it more difficult to use a protractor?
     
  13. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    Anti-skating counteracts the friction force caused by setting the stylus on the record past the spindle, in a overhanging position. The direction of movement is pulling across the axis (from the stylus to the pivot), not parallel to it. If the stylus fell on the tangent, like on a linear tracker, there would be no skating. A blank record surface does not approximate the groove friction, so it is not a valid method.
     
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  14. Davey

    Davey NP: Electrelane ~ No Shouts No Calls (2007 LP)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Well, technically it's the cartridge offset angle, and the resulting force component toward the spindle caused by the vinyl friction, but I think that's what you mean. Overhang without an offset angle wouldn't cause a skating force, though it would probably cause some other problems.

    The blank vinyl record is actually the recommended way to set anti-skate, based on the opinion of some highly regarded designers, including Frank Schroeder and Peter Ledermann. The friction of a blank vinyl surface (not polycarbonate as on a CD or Laserdisc) is similar to the friction in a record groove with normal music modulation. So if you set anti-skate so that the tonearm slowly drifts toward the center of the record, it will be close to what is best with normal music. I just use my original copy of the great Built To Spill Perfect From Now On, side D is blank.

    How Do I Adjust Anti-skating On My Cartridge? | Soundsmith

    Again, when adjusted correctly, it should track SLOWLY INWARDS toward the center at a MUCH SLOWER RATE than IF IT WERE ACTUALLY in the end groove. If you do that, then the best average Anti-Skating is set correctly.
     
  15. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    It's not the offset angle. If the tonearm was totally straight, from pivot to stylus, the skating force would still exist if the stylus contacts the groove in the overhang location. The offset angle is a response to the angled location on the record, not the cause of the angled friction force. If the tonearm on a tangential turntable had an angle in it, it still would not experience skating force as long as it lands on the tangent. If a tonearm like this drawing existed, even with no offset angle, it would experience skating force.

    As for the blank record - Soundsmith's recommendation is different from the question I responded to. The question was regarding having the arm stand still on a spinning blank surface. In that situation you have too much anti-skating compensation. The friction is not the same.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
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  16. Davey

    Davey NP: Electrelane ~ No Shouts No Calls (2007 LP)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    OK, agreed, you're right.
     
  17. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I've skimmed this so apologies if it has already been covered, but have you cleaned/inspected bottom of the platter/to of the subplatter contact surfaces and the pulley/belt surface for anything unusual?

    Also, check level at multiple points on the platter while rotating it my 1/4 turn or so to see if you get similar readings at each position.
     
  18. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    Nothing funny going on with the platter, subplatter or pulley. I also used a spirit level in multiple locations and in 1/4 turns, and it's spot on. The problem appears to be with the Bias cart. The cantilever is bent in a way that the angles the stylus slightly towards the edge of the platter. No more skipping with the Carbon cartridge back on. I also applied the same tracking force to both carts to eliminate that variable.
     
  19. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    I would like to test Soundsmith's method in between the run-out grooves, but all of my records have etching between each groove. Is that a concern? Will that be bad for the stylus to hit the etching?
     
  20. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    Well I don't have a laserdisc, but I do have DVDs! I moved a DVD around the platter a bit to test different areas, and the stylus stayed put in all places from the edge of the platter to the spindle. When I get the replacement Bias 2 I'll test it again since is requires a lighter VTF than the Carbon (1.75g for the Bias vs 2-3g for the Carbon).

    Just to be clear - this is to be done with the platter stopped and NOT spinning, correct?
     
  21. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    The etching isn't hurting the stylus. The method of using a blank disc has to be done while the disc is spinning. Otherwise, nothing is measured at all.

    The skating force varies depending on tracking force, the profile of the stylus, the speed of the record, the modulation of the groove, and the location on the record. The best you're hoping for is an average. The point of the stylus on a flat surface at a right angle to it is a different friction force than two contact points in a groove. Soundsmith's advice is an educated guess based on their experience. They don't recommend you make it stand still. They attempt to explain how quickly to expect it to ride inward.
     
  22. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    No. Don't follow this advice as it is inaccurate. Use your anti-skating mechanism as designed and it will be fine. You cannot use a black surface as a substitute for a modulated groove, it just isn't the same. A modulated groove has more drag, period. If you were to do this and allow the arm to remain still, you would have a bit too little anti-skate set. If you were to allow the arm to drift inward slowly, you'd have quite a bit too little. Just use the arm as it was designed.
    -Bill
     
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  23. H8SLKC

    H8SLKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    FWIW, and nothing against Rega here, since I am intrigued by Rega and may buy one at some point, I find it comical that they throw in a glorified AT91 cartridge, which is a super low end cartridge that retails for about $20, in any of their turntables. No turntable that retails at $475 or more USD should ever come with anything less than an AT95e.
     
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  24. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    I ddefinitely agree with you on that, which is why I opted for the performance pack right off the bat. And the replacement Carbon cartridges retail for around $60!
     
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  25. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I do mean the Laserdisc test to have a spinning Laserdisc. Check at all points across the playing area of an LP. The DVD, or CD, test is something if you have one handy, but get a Laserdisc.

    Oh "The antiskate wars". I do not wish to participate today.

    The Laserdisc test is a quick crude cheap test, I think I indicated that. If nothing else, it easily shows the forces involved.
    Others believe in some other ways to measure and set antiskate, and there are much better ways. But not in 2 seconds for $1.
    I believe the Laserdisc test will quickly show a defect in antiskate performance, or show a sticking part in the arc of the tonearm.
    I believe it alone will get you at least 80 or 90% of the way to a perfect antiskate setting, and most people don't even get anywhere near that.
     
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