Fifty year old phono cartridges

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by 62vauxhall, Oct 3, 2017.

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  1. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    One thing to note is repackaging. Pfanstiehl will repackage styli. I have an Astatic N359-7D in a Pfanstiehl 505-D7 package. Astatic put their part number and the 'A' on their styli.

    BTW.... Astatic is alive and well in Canada. Nothing for the VR 1000 of course, but Shures and Pickerings, etc.....yes.
    Canadian Astatic

    Pfanstiehl and Russell Industries are the only distributors of NOS and newly manufactured styli for older cartridges in the US. Not retailers(although you may buy directly from them) but distributors.

    Russell Industries sells old and newly manufactured styli. New EVG styli are from Japan. Newly manufactured and apparently quality items. They may be JICO's. I do not know.
    Russell Industries, Inc., electronic distributor, EMPIRE, NEEDLES, CARTRIDGES

    Pfanstiehl also sells old and newly manufactured styli. It appears that their styli come from Switzerland.
    LKG Home Page

    Other excellent sources of styli are Gary Stork at Voice of Music. He has a surprisingly good selection of originals. And great prices.

    On Ebay you can find Shure, Pickering, Empire, etc original styli in Astatic or Pfanstiehl packaging. And possibly other aftermarket brands. They are clearly marked that the package contains a genuine Shure, Pickering, etc stylus.
     
  2. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Astatic webpage:

    Magnetic Stylus Pickering
     
  3. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ

    JICO:
    N-21, JICO stylus | Online Shopping for Japanese Phonograph Needles

    EVG:
    Look for PM3ll8D on Amazon. PM3ll8D is the EVG model number. Amazon only has two left.

    More legible :
    PM3118D
     
  4. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    Listening right now to a Sontone 16T with an L Pad circuit into a magnetic phono stage. Tracking at 2g. Makes you wonder if people really flocked to magnetic cartridges when they came out. Ceramic cartridges do dynamics like no other type and the high end is clear, uncluttered, orderly and airy well beyond most LOMC. I actually get cymbal energy echo off my walls like the real things. This never happens with any kind of magnetic cartridge.

    But the ceramics I listen to are helped by modern arms with tight bearings and a fluid damper. It’s possible they never sounded this good back in the day.
     
  5. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I think a lot of really excellent products got overlooked as they still do. Your Sonotone probably sounds every bit as good as you say. Everything was 'trackability' and NO sibilance. Which to me...no sibilance means no highs. LOL.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  6. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    One thing that I noticed right away with the GE VR 1000 was the sound of drums. Instead of a 'whoomp' you could hear the 'skin' sound. And cymbals were more explosive.
     
  7. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ

    CORRECTION *** N356-7D not N359-7D. I have the former, Mike has the latter.
     
  8. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    NeedleDaddy on Ebay also had this stylus. EVG. Some EVG Shure replacements certainly look like they were manufactured by JICO.
     
  9. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
  10. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    There is no sibilance here. I'm finding as I experiment around with a great variety of cartridges that sibilance is mostly a resonance issue and can be tamed in every case. You either need a heavier arm, heavier tracking force, or some other way to dampen resonance. In fact, the more I experiment, I'm finding that heavier tracking force is really not the best answer (certainly going up beyond 3g, anyway).

    Since I started adding mass to my Technics arm (and I'll try O rings next--haven't tried that yet) cartridges that I thought required too heavy of a tracking force have begun putting out unbelievable sound. This 16T was the worst of the lot. I've also got a 9TA-F, 9TA-FHC, a BSR SC5M, and a couple of others. The BSR always sounded good, but a little off on the top end--somewhat rolled off and also timbre-shifted. Some instruments didn't sound quite right. Now that I have lateral low resonance frequency on point, it has opened up so much that it's absolutely full range and accurate.

    What I like about these cartridges is how realistic brass and wind instruments sound. Saxaphones are squeaky, woods are reedy, etc., as you mentioned that drums have a skin sound. I know exactly what you mean. Brushes against a snare sound like someone breathing. Amazing stuff. I think of the multi thousand dollar magnetic cartridges that are still trying to compensate for hysteresis, and they just can't get transient attack and texture, no matter what--but you wouldn't even know how different a record groove can sound unless you tried one of these ceramic cartridges.

    The closest magnetic cartridge that I can think of that delivers a sound like this is the Decca with its positive scanning "cantileverless" arrangement. I'd love to get one of those old GE VR-1000 cartridges, but the cat is out of the bag with those. But there are others that probably sound as good that fly under the radar, which is why I hook up a lot of cartridges.

    To think that someone using a ceramic cartridge could have heard records using a system similar to mine (KT66 push pull tube amp with lots of iron) and getting this sound--it just changes everything you thought about Hi Fi and 1940s-1950s technology. This is amazing stuff.
     
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  11. 389 Tripower

    389 Tripower Just a little south of Moline

    Location:
    Moline, IL USA
  12. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    There is some great quality out there for cheap. Here is a thread from this site. But there is a mistake. Russell Industries does not own Pfanstiehl. LKG owns Pfanstiehl. Russell Industries owns EVG which produces many great styli apparently:
    EVG Stylus - thoughts?
     
  13. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Change 'produces' to 'sells' if the styli are coming from JICO.
     
  14. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo!

    Location:
    NYC
    Update!

    Today I took 3 hours, and pulled out my Garrard Type A turntable which I havent used in over 10 years. My uncle purchased this new in 1960 in Queens, NY. I pulled off the platters and cleaned the moving parts of grime, including the motor capstan, the drive wheel, and the inside of the turntable platter. Cleaned it all up, and let it rip......wouldnt you know.....it worked perfectly!!! They really knew how to make stuff in the old days.

    With PhxJohns help via PM I got the VR-1000 wired in the headshell. Put on a stereo LP "A Decade with The Ventures".

    Success! The cart played great. Nice highs, smooth sound, no distortion. My first reaction is that it sounds very much like my Shure M91Ed.

    This cart really pulls a lot of detail out of the grooves. The stereo separation was excellent. I'd like to hear a bit more bass. I'm tracking at 3.2 grams, perhaps that needs to go up a bit?

    I must say, it was exciting to be able to get both of these actually working again, just like they did 58 years ago!
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
    PhxJohn likes this.
  15. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Congratulations Mike !!!

    Try 4 grams. If it does not sound 'bassier', go back to 3.2. No point in tracking heavier than you need to. Remember please that the Shure's are typically a warmer sounding cartridge. The GE is a brighter sounding cartridge. You have examples of being on either side of neutral, so enjoy the differences between the two. I am so happy that you are happy !

    John
     
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  16. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo!

    Location:
    NYC
    Thanks John. This was a real kick getting the VR-1000 and the Garrard to actually work.
    I am sure that this combination was common way back in 1960.

    One thing I did notice: The output of the VR-1000 was on the low side. I had to boost the amp volume up to about 3/4 of the top. I wonder if this was the case when it was new, or if the carts age has started to diminish the output level.
     
    PhxJohn likes this.
  17. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ

    Let me think about that. It is a very high output cartridge. Like 10mv @5cm/sec. Let me look up the Shure's output. If I remember, they were usually around 5mv @ 5cm/sec.
     
  18. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
  19. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
  20. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    The magnetism should not diminish. First thing, is the stylus assembly fully inserted ? Try that first. Then...If you want to....you won't break anything....remove the shield that is normally removed to change out a stylus. Remove the stylus. The white assembly comes straight out. There is a round visible magnet pole in the cartridge body. Using a paper clip, see if the magnet is strong. It should be. The way the cartridge works is that the magnetism (flux) from that pole is directed down the cantilever to the stylus. The stylus vibrates between those two poles pieces that are part of the stylus assembly. That directs the flux up the pole pieces back into the cartridge. There are coils surrounding those two pole pieces once the stylus assembly is inserted. That is how it generates an electrical signal. One reason that I can think of for diminished output would be if someone tried to demagnetize the cartridge. That is only permitted for moving coil cartridges. I don't even want to go there. A more hopeful possibility is low iron content of the pole pieces or cantilever of the stylus assembly. A change of stylus would solve that.
     
  21. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I am taking a shot here....you mentioned diminished bass and low output. Do you have it plugged into the same phono input that you normally use ? The output of the GE is so high normally that you might be able to get away with such a mistake. Please do not be insulted. Just trying to help you out from 1500 miles away.
     
  22. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo!

    Location:
    NYC
    LOL....Hi John. I never get insulted when someone is trying to help me. :) And I always say "Thank You".

    Yes, its plugged into Phono B, one of the two magnetic phono inputs on my EICO ST40. I will try what you suggested and remove the stylus, do the paper clip trick and reinsert, and try again.I could also try plugging it into Phono A and see if that makes a difference, doubt it tho.
     
  23. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Hi Mike,

    One thing at a time so that you know what the answer is. Try another stylus too if you have one. With MM cartridges the strength of the magnet on the cantilever determines output. Your cartridge operates differently as I explained. Your stylus cantilever could be magnetized or lacking in iron content.
     
  24. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Hi Mike,

    And I was thinking of the phono inputs because back when the EICO(and I did not know which preamp you were using....Jolida or Eico) was current, ceramic cartridges were also popular. And EICO's were available as kits. I was thinking maybe one phono input is a ceramic cartridge input. Ceramic cartridges require more gain than a line level source such as CD. So plugging a magnetic cartridge into a ceramic cartridge input would give some useable gain but it would not be RIAA equalized.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  25. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I don't want to start another thread.....Pfanstiehl still manufactures styli here in the States as well as importing from Japan and Switzerland. I think EVG imports only. I could be wrong about EVG but am certain about Pfanstiehl.
     
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