Fire at Great White concert; 100 dead.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by KeithH, Feb 21, 2003.

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  1. Vinyl-Addict

    Vinyl-Addict Groovetracer Manufacturer

    Location:
    USA
    Me too, I guess I'll try to explain to my 18 year old son that he needs to be aware of emergency exits whenever he goes to these closed in & congested types of places.
    The problem as you know is that after a couple of drinks you don't think much about fires or safety, you're too busy having a good time. Maybe the clubs will have to assign a staff member solely to look out for these types of dangers instead of just "bouncing".
     
  2. Matt

    Matt New Member

    Location:
    Illinois
    The Cavern Club was supposedly a pretty dangerous structure. When I first heard about it, I got the chilling thought of what it would be like if a fire or something similar broke out in that club when the Beatles were on. There are just too many clubs out there with the potential for this sort of thing happening.
     
  3. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    Jack Russell also stated that he saw no emergency lights go on. (That, however, would only happen if the power went out...?) Even if they had, would they have been able to see them through that thick black smoke? In any building I've dealt with, they need to have illuminated or highly visible exit signs. I'm sure those would have been in place for the building inspection...but again, could anybody see them?

    This also kills any idea I had of putting up some "egg crate" soundproofing foam. No way I'll have that stuff on the walls of my house now! Fire retardant or not, last thing I need is someone knocking over a lamp or candle.

    CNN's video coverage seems to be "for pay" only, but our local NBC affiliate had a decent link on their website. The picture wasn't very clear, but the way that orange glow just got brighter within *seconds* is scary beyond belief.

    :(
     
  4. danstone

    danstone Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington State
    This has been on my mind quite a bit today after hearing the news. I saw Great White perform about ten years ago.

    I've been very fortunate to have never been seriously injured at a concert that I've attended, despite witnessing plenty of things at various shows over the years that have certainly caused concern for myself and others. Looking back, it's easy to see how something like last night could have happened had things been just a bit different. It's a very eerie and uneasy feeling.

    I'm especially not looking forward to the time that my son will want to be attending some of these same types of shows in a few more years. I will certainly be talking with him about my own experiences as well as events like last night's Great White show.

    Hopefully some good will come from this tragedy and regulations and/or additional safety controls will be be implemented to prevent it from happening again.
     
  5. MrMudPuppy

    MrMudPuppy Forum Resident

  6. Vinyl-Addict

    Vinyl-Addict Groovetracer Manufacturer

    Location:
    USA
    Wow, intense article. I dosed off on the sofa last night and upon waking I put the tv on CNN(about 2.30PST)and they were showing pictures of the fire. They showed the video of all the people stacked up at the front door briefly, maybe the camera man knew what was about to happen to those poor souls, what a tragedy. I hope the folks who run the Grammy's have a moment of silence to honor the dead, it would definitely reach a large music oriented, concert going audience who need to be aware such a tragedy can happen.
     
  7. The governor is on CNN right now. They just found another body.

    96 :(


    He says they have only identified 7 people so far, possibly another 8 before the day is over. There are 25 or so more people in critical condition in hospital. Officials, oh my....say that probably the numbers will be over 100 soon. :shake:
     
  8. Dan C

    Dan C Forum Fotographer

    Location:
    The West
    It's here at the station that shot the video, including an interview with the photographer:
    http://www.wpri.com/artman/publish/cat_index_20.shtml

    Dan C
     
  9. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    My daughter is sixteen going on seventeen and has already started going to all ages shows here in the Boston area. I guess I can be blamed for it since I am the one who got her started. Her mother and I have attended many of these shows with her and have given her a lecture on the pitfalls that are present in these venues. In fact my daughter got another lecture last night.
     
  10. Evan L

    Evan L Beatologist

    Location:
    Vermont
    A horrible tragedy. You can see the flames ignite the place right up in the video. I know if I had been there, once I saw the flames hit the ceiling, I would have bolted. There is a terrible shot of people collapsed on one another, trying to get out. What was Great White thinking? How could they justify using stadium high flames in a night club? Call it ignorance, but the band shares some of the blame for this. I can't believe they wouldn't measure the flame length before setting it off.

    Awful.:(
     
  11. metalbob

    metalbob Senior Member

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I don't think any flames were intended. I guess that sparkler they had in front of the drum kit ignited the soundproofing almost immediately, thus making it look like an "display" in the first few seconds. Then, that's when the fire started climbing up the wall.
     
  12. ATR

    ATR Senior Member

    Location:
    Baystate
    Mom always used to warn me about checking for the fire exits when I went to the jazz clubs and lofts in NYC. She was from MA and familiar with the Cocoanut Grove fire. I know a trumpet player who was a survivor of that disaster. There's not much you can say, except once again what a shame for the victims and their families. Hindsight is 20/20, I'm sure a lot of regulations that would have prevented this from happening were not being followed. I agree with SH that the pyrotechnics should be in the music and the fireworks should be outdoors on the Fourth of July, but that is, tragically in this case, show business.
     
  13. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    Turns out two other bands used pyrotechnics at the club:

    This is gonna get ugly...
     
  14. stever

    stever Senior Member

    Location:
    Omaha, Nebr.
    Check out Rudy's Washington Post quote above. Yes, it is going to get ugly.

    I can't get that horrific video image of that pile of humanity at the front door, desperately trying to squeeze out of the club, out of my head.
     
  15. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    I was getting myself hyped up to see Joe Jackson on 4/1. Didn't buy tickets yet, but now I'm having *major* second thoughts. No, the only pyrotechnics Jackson will have will be the music...but still...I've never been comfortable in large crowds.
     
  16. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I have tickets to see King Crimson in a small and very old theatre here in Boston. You can bet I will be checking for the exits.

    Rudy, We can't just stay locked up in our houses, there is too much out there for us to enjoy. A little precaution and some street smarts can go a long way.
     
  17. reechie

    reechie Senior Member

    Location:
    Baltimore
    Rudy, you can't let something like this keep you from supporting and enjoying live music. I'm with you, I don't like crowds at all, and I've all but given up on big arena and stadium shows, with very few exceptions. Yet I'm still there when The Smithereens play at a venue within driving distance, and I'll be traveling to NYC next month to take in a show by the band I do a web site for, The Rooks.

    Yes, I'll be paying a bit more attention to where the exits are, and maybe planning an escape route should trouble arise, but I'm not going to stop attending shows and seeing the bands I love play the music I love. This could be your only chance to see the original Joe Jackson band, don't miss it because of a couple of tragic, but frankly isolated, incidents at night clubs.

    Remember, we've all been to hundreds of great shows at clubs over the years with no problems. Take some time to familiarize yourself with the venue, if it makes you feel better, position yourself in a place where your comfortable and close to an exit, then put it out of your mind and enjoy the show.

    Actually, now that I think about it, clubs, bands and patrons are now on high alert for anything that could catch fire, become a trap, or be in their way should a disaster strike at a night club. This could possibly be the safest time to attend a show at one of them. It's a shame it took something this tragic to wake people up.
     
  18. First off, I want to send my prayers and sympathies to all who perished in this fire. My knowledge of fires, and being aware of the particular surroundings I am currently in, was learned via the US Navy. I spent five years aboard a submarine where we were trained, on a very regular basis, to battle many different casualties. a lot of that training was focused on knowing where you are, where you can go, and what to watch out for when the **** hit the fan. When I go into a place, be it a department store, an eatery, a movie theater, a local bar, or wherever, I almost instinctively look for exits, fire extinguishers/hoses, possible traps and so on. Because of this I have also noticed quite a few bad things. Next time you are in your favorite bar/club/live music venue, look at the ceiling closely. Many of them are completely covered in old cob webs and dust because they never get cleaned. I am guessing that the fire went up the back wall, aided by the dust collected on the sound foam surfaces, and then basically flashed across the dusty ceiling. When this happens the smoke builds very quickly, the fire spreads even faster and the panic is uncontrollable for those who have no idea what to do. Fire retardent items are not designed to be fire proof, as many mistakenly assume. Fire retardent means that it will not propagate a flame (burn on its own) but if a flame is maintained it will burn quite well. The tar residue left from cigarette smoke is also flammable and clings to every surface where smoking takes place. It is almost certian that rules were neglected by both club owners and band employees alike. This is why you need to be aware of your surroundings and keep yourself safe. What "should have been done" means very little after the fact. Know your surroundings, find the exits (visually at a minimum), find fire fighting equipment, keep out of "traps" at all costs, don't get so drunk that you are unaware, and if things seem bad, or you get that uneasy gut feeling, take action. Also, take the time to train yourself and your family in damage control. Buy a few cheap fire extinguishers, start a small fire in your grille, or somewhere safe, and have each person go through the procedure of putting it out. Find where to shut off the gas, water, electricity and then label them for easy identification. Go to a few places you frequent for the sole purpose of finding the escapes, equipment, traps, and all other things related to disaster abatement. You might be very shocked at what is there once you go looking for it. Make sure you bring your kids and teach them also. Local fire/police departments often have programs that are designed for just this purpose. GO USE THEIR KNOWLEDGE. I know some of this seems easy and somewhat over the top cautious. The simple steps needed to learn what to look for and what do when things go bad can save your life. Every one of us has taken a few hours to make sure the stereo is set up just right. How many have taken even a few minutes to figure out what to do if the thing catches on fire? You are the only person who is really responsible for you, so invest a little in yourself.
     
  19. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    NO, I'm not going to be a shut-in in this aftermath, but after I think of all the hassles of going out, driving all the way up to Pontiac (a city I despise almost as much as Detroit, by the way), then being stuck in a club pushing and shoving to get a seat, and coming home reeking like an ashtray and cheap beer...I can stay at home and play the CD. Wish he'd been in Ann Arbor at a place like The Ark, where I unfortunately missed seeing BR5-49 last year.

    The entire experience, I feel, would have been better in a small theater setting. Not some run-down dive in a crime-infested city.
     
  20. Dan C

    Dan C Forum Fotographer

    Location:
    The West
    Good advice cleandan, and welcome to the forum.

    There was an informative section on Dateline NBC last night about handling a crowd. Those shows are usually pretty worthless but this had some good tips in it. I'm sure as hell never taking an Exit sign for granted again.
    Dan C
     
  21. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    I remember we had a "fire drill" when we went on a Carnival cruise back in 1999--learned our escape routes, and the directions to get to the lifeboats. Not a bad idea to figure out an escape route when going to any public building.
     
  22. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    Make that 97 dead. I guess another died at one of the hospitals.:(

    ED
     
  23. reechie

    reechie Senior Member

    Location:
    Baltimore
    Actually, they found one more body in the rubble over the weekend, after they'd originally thought they'd removed them all.
     
  24. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    Ty Longley, the young guitarist's body was identified today.:(
     
  25. Ed Bishop

    Ed Bishop Incredibly, I'm still here

    Thanks for that correction, Rich; I'd just heard they'd upped the count, and they had made it sound as if they'd found all the bodies in the rubble. And apparently a search warrant was executed for one of The Station owner's homes. Have no idea what that's about, but it can't be good.

    ED
     
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