First Ever Country Rock Song

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by klaatuhf, Jun 10, 2008.

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  1. MikeM

    MikeM Senior Member

    Location:
    Youngstown, Ohio
    I think this because it's what my ears tell me (thank you very much). Unlike those whose ears are clogged by their own specious reasoning, I hear distinctions in various forms of music at the same time I'm hearing their commonalities.


    Well, good for you!


    Yep, no doubt about it...very little difference in sound between Elvis/Carl/Jerry Lee and Sweetheart-era Byrds/Burritos/New Riders. Why bother to make any distinction between them whatsoever? :rolleyes:


    OK, so we have "carved in stone" at one extreme. Then there's the other extreme (yours): country rock "can't really be defined."

    I'll take the middle ground, which says that we can at least make a careful effort to define it.


    So what? Most of these artists also charted on the R&B charts as well. How does this fit in with your reasoning? That was simply the tenor of the times. What does this have to do with what was going on in L.A. in 1966-67?


    In the same way I argue that The Standells/Chocolate Watchband/Shadows of Knight etc. aren't "punk rock" -- even though this was in fact the very term that was originally applied to them in the early 70s. Once The Ramones et al came along, the term "punk" was appropriated for that genre of music, and the 60s variety became known as garage rock. One influenced the other, but that doesn't mean that one IS the other.


    Very true, but what has this got to do with the price of fish? How does this fact influence the naming of the genre "country rock" in any way?


    As is usual in discussions such as these, people ignore the questions that make them uncomfortable or that they have no answers for.

    How about if I repeat the questions I posed to you that you ignored?

    What is the downside of applying carefully considered terms to identify a recognizable genre of music? And what is the upside of applying these same terms cavalierly to music outside of that genre?
     
  2. Trainspotting

    Trainspotting Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    LOL

    Okay, okay you win, Mike.
    "Country rock" didn't exist before the mid '60s and we'll stick with the standard definition of the term. If I say anything which disagrees with your textbook understanding of the genre then I'm guilty of "specious reasoning" and 'lil Henry will start crying that I'm being "argumentative" (God forbid) and we'll get another multi-paragraph rebuttal from you where you whine over every point I made.
     
  3. woody

    woody Forum Resident

    Location:
    charleston, sc
    sticking to a modern definition of country rock what about the dillards as the earliest?

    "The Dillards then were never a traditional bluegrass group. In 1964 they had electrified their instruments at a bluegrass festival and in 1965 they toured with drummer Duey Martin (before he joined Buffalo Springfield, on the recommendation of Rodney to Stephen Stills). They had covered the Dylan song "Walkin Down Down The Line" (the vocal harmonies foreshadowing the later work), and on the 63 album they introduced the fiddler Byron Berline. Mitch on the 'Live' sleevenotes said "If a band sticks to time honoured approaches, it is stereotyped; if it seeks new approaches it becomes fair game for the tongue-chucking of the traditionalists. The answer, we think, is to do what comes naturally." "

    "Wheatstraw Suite might have startled listeners expecting another bluegrass outing along the lines of their previous three Elektra albums. Actually, however, the group had been moving toward a more contemporary sound for a few years, though Wheatstraw Suite was their first opportunity to put it on a full-length album. They had been doing Bob Dylan material as early as 1964, when they put his "Walkin' Down the Line" (which Dylan had yet to put on one of his official releases) on their Live...Almost LP. In the mid-1960s they toured with the Byrds, with whom they shared management. Dewey Martin even toured as the Dillards' drummer briefly before joining Buffalo Springfield. "On some of these tours with [the Byrds], we were starting to experiment with plugging in our instruments," notes the Dillards' Dean Webb. "I was playing electric mandolin. Douglas [Dillard] had an electric 12-string guitar, and started finger-picking it." "
     
  4. Trainspotting

    Trainspotting Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Yeah, I mentioned the Dillards before too. Thing is--Wheatstraw Suite, their first album in the "country rock" sense of the term as Mike and Henry understand it, didn't come out until '68. They were pretty much a bluegrass group before that. It's a good LP though, as is Copperfields.

    Both Hearts & Flowers and Gene Clark released albums in '67 which could charitably be described as country rock.
     
  5. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    It is a difficult subject to get everyone to agree on a single definition.

    Personally, I accept the 1965-ish era as the beginning for 'definition' purposes - not because there wasn't any 'country rock' before then (there obviously was) - but because the sound of mainstream rock had so rapidly changed and had veered away from American centered groups and music with the influx of the English bands.

    Even though many UK groups were heavily influenced by American music their sound was now unique in its own right. Its this heavy foreign infusion that reshaped or changed music in the US - and at that point the notion that a current 'in' group would go 'retro' and delve into earlier American sound was somewhat of a curiosity. There was somewhat of a generational and demographic gulf between Country music and rock music followers in the 65-75 or so era that helped shape the concept of 'country rock.'
     
  6. 120dB

    120dB Forum Resident

    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Uh....

    I think in the 50s it was called R-O-C-K-A-B-I-L-L-Y!!!
     
  7. Trainspotting

    Trainspotting Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Definitely.
    It was also a sub genre of folk rock (which is very similar in just about any respect you can think of). I recommend Richie Unterberger's two books on folk rock for a lengthy history of the genres. The back-to-the-roots, Americana movement which started in '67 (probably with the Basement Tapes recordings from Dylan/The Band) was a major influence on country rock and its acceptance among the counter culture in the late '60s. If you can even argue that it really was accepted in the first place. The vast majority of the country rock bands weren't successful on the radio. That wouldn't come until the Eagles in the next decade.
     
  8. Trainspotting

    Trainspotting Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
  9. klaatuhf

    klaatuhf Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Anyone out there knowledgeable enough to comment on my first 7 Country Rock songs please? Anyone totally disagree or had never heard of any of these before now?
    How about MikeM, Henry or Beattles? You all obviously have good knowledge on the subject and I would like to get to the nitty gritty if we can, now that, hopefully, the "is it a genre or is it not" argument is hopefully laid to rest. Also someone please give me an opinion on who was the first UK CR artist?
     
    Mr.Qwerty likes this.
  10. woody

    woody Forum Resident

    Location:
    charleston, sc
  11. klaatuhf

    klaatuhf Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Brilliant site and wonderful discussion that can answer a lot of the arguments from here. Maybe Trainspotting would like to have a read and be shocked? lol

    But as usual whenever CR gets mentioned, rarely does Michael Nesmith get the credit he so rightly desrves for being at the very start of CR. He probably recorded the first real Pop/CR song in "What am I Doing Hanging Round" in 1967? But that song was actually written by Michael Murphey of "Wildfire" fame! Another early pioneer.
     
    Mr.Qwerty and monkees paw like this.
  12. Trainspotting

    Trainspotting Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    What would I be shocked about?
    It reiterates what's been said on this forum since the beginning.
     
  13. MrQwerty

    MrQwerty New Member

    Location:
    Fylde, UK
    The Setting The Woods On Fire article is excellent - pity not one of the MP3 links work. I understand why these are quickly deleted, but for a piece like this, the loss obviously impacts the excellent prose and research.

    Raunchnroll - at last somebody recognises the point I made many posts ago, that country rock is largely cultural and echos my claims about the significance of the British Invasion and how important it's role was in shaping this new mid-60's musical development.

    Taking up the OP's later and most recent question about the first British Country Rock song. Almost single handedly I'd credit Ian (sometime Iain) Matthews first for his work with Fairport Convention and the covers they did of Emitt Rhodes, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan and some of their own songs back in 67/68. Mostly later though, for his pioneering work with Matthews Southern Comfort (first solo) then with a band, fully embraces with genre with they great Gordon Huntley on Pedal Steel and covers of great songs by artists as obscure (certainly to Brits) as Neil Young, Al Anderson (Wildweeds) and Eric Anderson.

    The source, I realise is singer/songwriters, but make no mistake, this is where Country Rock is further infused with British Folk Rock to produce something different yet again.

    Beyond that I also cite Brinsley Schwarz, but that's a whole new discussion and right now I have got to close this post as real life beckons once again!
     
  14. AndrewM

    AndrewM New Member

    Location:
    River Edge, NJ

    Looking at this article objectively the Beatles did beat everyone of their popular peers to the punch. This would not be the first time Roger McGuinn went the folk rock route because of the Beatles chord progressions and backbeat. "I Don't Want to Spoil the Party" was recorded in Sept 1964. Roesanne Cash had a country number one hit with the song. It does not matter to me if its done in the typical Beatlesque Pop-rock mode. :D
     
  15. MikeM

    MikeM Senior Member

    Location:
    Youngstown, Ohio
    GREAT strategy you've settled on here...my compliments!

    I recommend it heartily for anyone who finds himself in your position...that is, unable to muster any real arguments to his side.


    Pay attention, kids. Next time this happens to you, all's you got to do is:

    1) Utterly ignore any arguments that run counter to your stated point of view (if I found your reasoning "specious," at least I told you why -- more than you've been able to do).

    2) Accuse anyone who actually wants to discuss the substance of the issue of "whining over every point you've made." (Silly me...I thought this was a dialog, not an oration. Since you're the expert at this, tell me: which of your points I should have ignored, and what is the maximum number it would have been OK for me to comment on?)

    3) Stamp your little feet and say "I'm right and you're wrong, and I'm just not gonna talk about it any more." (Translation...I have no answers for the points you made.)

    4) Get out of the kitchen, since you obviously can't stand the heat of a reasoned argument.

    5) Be sure to throw in a "LOL"on your way out, so you can imagine that you're speaking from a position of condescension.


    Does this about cover it?
     
  16. MikeM

    MikeM Senior Member

    Location:
    Youngstown, Ohio

    The entire list these were taken from is a very good one...some great choices, and it's especially instructive to see the recording dates associated with them. Good work!

    It might be a little tough to argue that many musicians gave much regard in 1966 to a cut from The Monkees' first album. (This is not to disparage the song or the group...it's just an acknowledgement of the prevailing attitude of the day.)

    It was a good song, but I'm not sure how seriously Nesmith was taken until he added "What Am I Doin' Hangin' 'Round" -- an even better song, though he didn't write it -- to the mix.


    The Gene Clark with the Gosdin Brothers album was a favorite of mine from the beginning. I never tire of listening to it, in all of its many incarnations! "Tried So Hard" is about as perfect as country rock gets.
     
    Mr.Qwerty likes this.
  17. Coldplay2002

    Coldplay2002 New Member

    Location:
    New York, New York
     
  18. Henry the Horse

    Henry the Horse Active Member

    It does indeed!
     
  19. Trainspotting

    Trainspotting Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles

    Uh, dude, are you high?

    You haven't exactly presented any "argument" for me to give a rebuttal to but if I missed it please bring it to my attention. I said "country rock" starts in the '50s as everyone knows. You say the rock critic definition starts with the LA bands in the mid '60s. I said fine, we can go that route. For some reason you're all pissed off because I brought up the Sun guys whereas you'd prefer to think it starts with, uh, the Beatles. Which, let's face it--goes against your original assertion that the LA bands started it.

    I don't know what kind of sense you think you're making but I guess you feel mighty proud of yourself right about now.

    :wave:
     
  20. MrQwerty

    MrQwerty New Member

    Location:
    Fylde, UK
    Trainspotting, Henry the Horse and MikeM - any chance you could take your undying love for each other outside or to another thread? I know I'm a mere newbie and you guys are seasoned critics but your regular bitches are kinda getting in the way of the debate.

    I'm not saying my pearls of wisdom deserve any kind of special attention, but so far most contributions I've made have been followed by an unrelated comments which seem to ensure they get lost in mire.

    Hope you understand - thanks ever so.
     
  21. Trainspotting

    Trainspotting Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    No problem, MrQwerty. I don't know what Mikey thinks the "argument" is anyway but I'm done.
     
  22. Henry the Horse

    Henry the Horse Active Member

    Hmmm.
    Well, I believe we're talking well known and popular artists here, so I'm kind of leaning towards the Lovin' Spoonful as a group that regularly infused country sounds into their pop/rock records
    Also, I don't think anyone's mentioned Jimmy Gilmer and The Fireballs.
     
  23. MikeM

    MikeM Senior Member

    Location:
    Youngstown, Ohio
    Gee, must be time for me to fold my tent and go home. How can I possibly compete with someone who's capable of such snappy comebacks as calling me "dude" and "Mikey"? I'm clearly out of my league here.



    I have -- several times. You've ignored each of them...and given your argumentative skills, I don't blame you.

    I surrender. Do congratulate yourself on your winning strategy. Obviously, you need it...I'm sure it will stand you in good stead in the future.


    Mighty high level of confidence in your point of view there, given the number of people in addition to me who've disagreed with you. But it doesn't surprise me. You're mighty good at this ignoring thing.



    Being as I never once said anything close to "country rock starts with The Beatles" in any of my posts (in fact, I argued against this), I'm not surprised that you "missed" everything I DID say.

    I'm not pissed off...just amused.


    No, I feel like someone who's just wasted a lot of time on something that fell considerably short of meriting it. I'm sure that admission makes you even prouder of yourself. By all means, enjoy it.


    Apologies to everyone else...I won't waste any more.
     
  24. Henry the Horse

    Henry the Horse Active Member

    How about "Mr. Spaceman" from the Byrds as a nominee?
     
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