First Watt M2 or J2

Here's to making a choice you enjoy....

 

What happened, Kimo?

 

I chose neither.

F5: Reminded me too much of a solid state amp, after extended listening.

J2: Very intriguing, but something did not seem to work well between it and my DAC, which isn't going anywhere.

Both were very smooth and clean. The J2 reminded me of a tube amp sans the golden glow, if that makes any sense. I would recommend any SET lover give this one a try. The F5 was also nice, but more clearly in the solid state camp. Not hard or flat though, in any way. Neither was nearly as lush as the 845 amp.

When switching from the First Watt amps to the SET, the first things one notices is a bit of harshness, more air, and more tonal color. You might say that the SET sounds a little dirty by comparison. Quickly, however, one settles into the sound of the SET. When switching back to the First Watt amps, clarity hits one first, but over time a slight transistor sound starts to catch one's attention, especially with the F5. I guess that there really isn't a substitute for "tube sound." Great amps, nonetheless, but not for me.

 

Kimo,

First off I loved reading this thread. It was clear and to the point, all responses were respectful and knowledgeable. I had been wondering about First Watt amps, and learned a lot.

Have you any experience with Decware amps?

The Torii Mk III that I've been enjoying for over a year I like to think of as having the best of both the transistor and the tube world. I never hear that transistor sound, but there is an open depth and a bass authority that mirrors the best solid state I've heard. And yet there's also that liquidity and the rounded imaging of the best tube amps. These have three stages of tube regulation, and also treble and bass controls so to speak that are outside the signal path that really allow you to tailor and compensate for recordings.

The amazing thing is how much these sound like his low-powered SET amps, but they have twenty-five watts per channel of high current, and can drive most speakers with an iron glove.

I know Tone Pub has been auditioning one, though he's made no comment about them. I really think that you may find the Torii a delight. It stopped my amp quest, cold!

Here's the product page. I confess I hate the way the amp is presented on these pages, but the information is there, and I also confess there is truth in the hyperbole. An amazing machine.

http://www.decware.com/newsite/TORII.htm

 

The amp looks very intriguing. I will be interested to see what Tonepub has to say about this amp. Price is right, and tubes shouldn't cost a fortune to replace.

I find the part about the PS Audio strange, however. I know that Art Audio generally suggests you plug the unit straight into the wall.

 

I would think it all depends on your electrical situation in your system. I know Steve Deckert is aware that a number of his customers use PS Audio power generators, they talk about them on the forum there. I myself used one with his "Select" amplifier (2 watt per channel SET) that I owned for years, and that is because I live in a house built in '32 with not exactly state of the art electrical wiring etc. I've made some changes to that situation and now with the Torii MK III I run an isolation transformer, actually one for analog components and one for digital, and I prefer to run the Torii from the isolation transformer than from the wall, it's a subtle difference, and another might prefer the reverse.

 

But regardless, I think a call to Steve might be a nice conversation for you, and judging from the preferences you've shown in this thread, I have a hunch you'd really enjoy a Torii MK III.

 

I own the Mini-Torii and the "Rachel" SET EL34 w/ VCAPS. I quite enjoy both, but I'm looking to possibly test them against the new Rossi LIO Mosfet w/ tube stage.

It would be straight amp and I would keep my Tortuga LDR as an external volume...

Not much of a SS guy but I'm curious nonetheless, especially with free 2-way shipping right now!

 

I looked at the First Watt products for a long while and eventually choose the Decware SE34I.4 "Rachel" with the Beewax II caps and stock 6N1P tubes.

I'm new to SET amps and switched from a vintage Sansui. The break in has been long, but the sound is much better. It's paired with 12 Ohm Zu Druids and so far, handles volume well in an average sized living room. I believe it may even be possible to turn the volume all the way up and not have clipping, I'll wait and discuss with Steve at Decware prior to trying. The Sansui amp typically was never higher than 20%.

I am hearing some better bass response from the Druids, with a different warmer bass than classic low end produced by high volume levels through the solid state. Midrange, highs and vocals seems to great and similar to what others have said about pairing SETs with Zus.

I have lost my past "itch" for the First Watt products in a search for a warm sounding solid state that sounds less like a SS and more like a SET and instead just bought a SET. Funny!

 

I owned an inherited 7070 a long while ago. Fun amp.

Last night I made peace with my hifi. I had wanted to shift some things around to a bigger side rack where my phono setup is. Wife nixed that (hey she's allowed room treatments so she has some street cred).

I put on a shuffle of a ton of "Audiophile" demo discs I have, mainly 44kHz stuff. I don't listen to these often but there are actually some great recordings on these albums!

The Zu Unions have a Clairty Cap upgrade that I have been thinking about trying the new Jupiter caps, but really no rush. I think the cheap tweeter comes in at 14kHz? Also, it's not a very fancy tweeter and I wonder if throwing in the copper foil caps will really make much of an improvement.

I think my hearing is pretty good if not above average, and I'm still young, under the big 4 0. Man, the highs are clear as a bell on Canon in D, and in some other tracks the seperation of instruments is really quite enjoyable. For being a bit beamy, i.e. small sweet spot, these image so, so well. Vocals are outstanding. John Prine, Chris Smithers, some female vocalist who came on randomly after a quiet classical track....wow! I just need to enjoy the music more often. One of my Decware amps is dead, and has been a point of frustration so I had considered jumping ship. But I think I stay the course.

The Rachel is a straight power amp, fed by an LDR (Tortuga) which fed by an Auralic Vega. I am using NOS Tesla brown base, Pope 7DJ8, and the big EML 5U4. Does your Rachel have the resistor upgrade to bias each tube individually?

thanks for chiming in Gecko, and I hope you enjoy your Rachel for years to come.

 

Yes, the Decware amp has two meters. From website: The amplifier is self biasing so you NEVER have to set or adjust the bias for the output tubes. See below link of my amp in action.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/avj7f4rw1wke4ep/Decware Model SE34I.4 Rachel powered tubes.jpg?dl=0​

The 2008 Zu Druids are still unmodified. I will explore upgrades perhaps next year after listening to the amp for at least a 1000 hours.

The Zus, as you mention, do very well with the vocals. Paired with such a simple amp all of the sounds I hear seems to be very clear with appropriate imaging. I'll still keep my eye on First Watts products but I'm settled in on this amp for a while.

Thank you for your comments.

...derek

 

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1373074425/7#7

 

Yes, but there is a mod because the tubes are biasing "together"...maybe you have this model?

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1373074425/7#7

 

Yes, separate bias on my (recent) model per Steve Deckert explaination:

"To reduce this effect, I started making the amps with a separate bias resistor for each tube so that what one tube does has no effect on the other tube. Most white ones were this way, all black ones are this way. To find out if your amp is this way or the "old" way, simply remove one of the power tubes and see if the meter on the other tube changes. It should remain where it was to within a couple mA. If it jumps way up or down then you're welcome to send the amp to us for the upgrade.
​

See below link for picture of left meter and tube active:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vt8kzhquju87xjg/Decware Model SE34I.4 Rachel Left tube powered.jpg?dl=0​

 

I'm considering the M2 but wondering how it will integrate with my system. My preamp is a NAD C 165BEE and my speakers are a pair of Monitor Audio RX8. Anyone with any input? Thanks!