Fisher 400, 500, 800 tube receivers--Got some questions, help please!

I have a Marantz 2245, ADS 730 speakers and a Thorens 160 turntable. My system sounds fantastic, but I've always been attracted to the idea of a tube receiver.

I read an older thread where @Steve Hoffman recommends the Fisher 400, 500 or 800 as a great tube receiver for the budget minded (that's me!).

A few questions...

1) What's the difference between the B/C models?
2) How do the 400, 500 and 800 models differ?
3) Are the original Fisher tubes sufficient, or would I need to change/upgrade them?
4) My Marantz has speaker A/B inputs. I use the A for the ADS speakers and the B for my sub. Could I do the same thing with the Fishers?
5) I wonder how the Fisher tubes would compare with the Marantz?
6) Do tube receivers require any sort of maintenance?

Thanks!

 

1) The C models were the last. Upgraded versions of the previous B models. (though when you learn more about Fishers, you'll realize when it comes to model ID and such. For the most part there isn't really any hard and fast rules, that apply universally to ALL Fishers, all the time.)
2) The 400 was 'BOTL' of 60's era tube receivers, it was FM only and used 7868 outputs. The 50o was more powerful and used 7591 outputs, the 800 added AM. (Overly simplified, for brevity)
3) The tubes should be tested, but there are quite a lot of original Fisher branded tubes in those models still running quite well.
4) I'm not sure about every iteration of all the Fishers 60 tube receivers, but quite a few can switch between A and B speaker outs.
5) While most all Fishers are very, very good, and highly regarded by most if not all tube heads, no one would put the tubed Fisher receivers in the same league, as any tube Marantz or tube McIntosh.
And this is born out by current market values, which was what Steve's original thread was all about.
6) Yes, for a vintage tube amp or reciver to be used safely and reliably, it REALLY, REALLY, needs a very thorough going over by someone that is very intimately familiar with vintage Fishers.
The bright spot is there are quite a few of those around, you just have to look.

If you are serious about starting this tube thing/Fisher obsession. Your next stop should be over at www.Audiokarma.org. And the Fisher forum there. Plenty of info, and kindred yet very knowledgeable, helpful Fisher fans over there. Everything I've learned about Fishers over the last 10 years I've learned from those guys!!!

I sure hope I answered most of these Q's, well enough to help you make an informed decision.

 

Hey Johnny- thanks for all the info. My Marantz isn't a tube so I assumed the Fisher would be am improvement. Not that the Marantz is bad, but I keep hearing that tube are the pinnacle.

I'd be using the Fisher for vinyl only.

I know a vintage hi if guy who would give the Fisher a good going over. Once that is complete, would I have to do anything else to maintain it?

 

First, the Marantz that built your 2245, in the 70s isn't really the same Marantz, other than in name, that built the legendary tubed Model 8 or Model 9 amplifiers in the early 60s.
Saul Marantz started as an audio hobbyist in the 50s selling his hand made creations out of his basement. But he sold/merged his company in the late 60s, to a Japanese oem radio/audio conglomerate.

Vintage Fishers do have some design flaws, that while not apparent when they were new/newish in the 60s, are becoming apparent now that these components are approaching 60-70 years of continuous use.
The 'volume knob/off on switch' being the first that comes to mind, being the most obvious.
But as far as 'everyday maintenance'? Not really. Once it's gone through by someone that KNOWS what he's looking for, and what needs replacing, it should be good for anther 50 or so years.[/B]

Head over to the Fisher forum at audiokarma, and ALL of your Q's and concerns should be answered. Great bunch of guys there, with decades of experience to share. I'm still a NOOB, by comparison, to those guys!!

 

I'm in a similar situation with my Fisher 400

it has a center channel out, you can use to feed a subwoofer. I do that, and *barely* have it on, just to flesh out the kick drum & add a bit of bass

if the old tubes test good, keep using them. they were made much better back then as it was current technology with higher mfr tolerances, non-recycled materials, yada yada from the days of yore

you can also get new 7868 tubes, but be aware the new pins are larger & will expand the tube sockets so vintage ones will be too loose

 

Too bad you're not in California. I've played with mine for a year and don't really need it. Getting ready to sell it, but I don't really want to ship.

 

ADS speakers are too inefficient for Fishers to drive. You need something more efficient.

 

The main thing to look for or have replaced immediately are the Wave Bridge Rectifier if it is selenium, the newer models had silicon, and the can capacitors. You can get the capacitor kits for $85.00 or so if you have someone that can do the replacement. The info at Audokarma has details. My 500-c has a headphone output and the b doesn't. Also, I have new JJ output tubes that I want to replace with vintage, but the 7591s are pricier than the 7868s in the 400. I have Large Advents and the extra 7 Watts a channel on the 500-c over the 400 made a big difference to me.

 

If you have to pay other people to work on vintage gear, buying new is going to be cheaper. As long as you know that going in, that's OK, but don't listen to any blather otherwise. In a piece of electronics this age, it's like Roseanna Roseannadanna, one thing after another.

If you have a selenium rectifier setup, bridge or otherwise, keep in mind it needs to be replaced with diodes with series resistance to approximate the voltage drop of the selenium rectifier. If you are paying by the hour expect someone to bill for a few to do this unless they have a PCB made up already.

Fisher equipment was well designed, although it was not as prestigious as Marantz, McIntosh or Fairchild, it is not fair to condemn it after 50 years because things like volume pot mounted switches tend to die 2 1/2 times past their design life.

I don't like to recommend old receivers for daily use unless you really want the RF functions, they are necessarily packed full of stuff, and they tend to use tubes like the 7591. A integrated amp or a power amp and a preamp if you even need a preamp is a better deal because of having a lot fewer parts, switches and circuits in there. I also don't think anyone is making replacement transformers for these either, if you lose a transformer you are in trouble.

 

@Burt ...well said

 

I use my restored Fisher 500C every day and have so for the last four years. Love it.

 

I've heard people say that, and it does seems logical... but that just hasn't been my experience.

Granted, I've only had my Fisher 400 for a year, but I bought my '62 VM 1448 amp nearly 20 years ago, and it has been incredibly reliable. Heck, I used it daily for 15 years with the original caps and everything! (I know, I was looking for trouble and I didn't know better at the time, but you get my point...)

 

The ADS are 92db efficient and run just fine on my X-100-3 at 22 wpc.

 

Then you are good to go, some ADS do demand power. And are 4 ohm loads.

 

I had an early 800 that allowed for the short lived stereo radio where one channel broadcast on FM and one on AM. It was a great sounding rig. I just listened to FM in mono for a year, but sold it. I just can't say that it was worth servicing back to snuff as it aged vs a Marantz I picked up cheap - back then you could. I think a nice sounding ss Marantz receiver keeps up well with a 60's tube Fisher rig. Japanese Marantz 22 series stuff is nice.

 

BOTL?

Bottom of the Line?
or
Best of the Lot?

I'm inclined to think the later.

 

Regardless of your personal opinion. The Fisher 400, was and always will be Fishers, 'bottom of the line' of all it's 1960s era tube receivers.
Though that description is not necessarily a knock. Or even indicative to it's sonic performance, it's engineering, or build quality. It is merely a statement of FACT.

 

I recall having a Fisher 500c in the mid seventies, do not remember why I got rid of it. In my memory it was a fine example of vintage tube gear. More lush and powerful than Dynaco gear, closer to Marantz is sound quality. I have a Scott 299b that needs refurbishing, that's my favorite of the lot.

 

I think I am gonna hold off on a tube purchase. From what I've read, there's a lot to consider, and they almost sound fragile.

 

They're only fragile if they haven't been properly serviced. Seriously.

I use my vintage tubes every day and they are not at all problematic or fussy. Just don't be a cheapskate and buy something that has been abused.

Start with a clean example and get it restored by someone who knows what they're doing. I see nice tube amps for reasonable bread all the time on AudioKarma's (subscriber-only) Barter Town, which have been gone through and fixed up already.

 

But I've read things about buying a special plug or something so that they slowly power on, so that the circuits don't get fried. Things like that make me leery. Or, am I overreacting?

 

You're overreacting.

It sounds like you're referring to a known issue with 50-year-old Fishers where the integrated volume/on-off knob is known to fail. The usual recommendation is to not use the knob to power it on and off, but to use a power strip with an on-off switch or something, in order to preserve the knob. Big deal!

Or maybe you've read recommendations to slowly power on old tube gear with a variac? This is only necessary when testing equipment in unknown condition, stuff that has been sitting in a basement or attic for decades, unused.

Fact is, old stuff does have its quirks. I need to power on my Thorens TD-124's motor 15 minutes before use, to allow the oil in the motor to warm up and get the platter up to proper pitch. (This is even specified in the owner's manual.) It's all part of the charm of owning vintage gear. In no way does it make me nervous about using it!

This stuff was usually VERY well built (by hand, too) and will possibly outlive most mass-produced components being made today. Use it with the proper care it requires and you will likely be rewarded with years of trouble-free enjoyment.

 

It's a Variac.

 

If you are nervous about using a vintage tube piece check out a gently new/used piece from the likes of Primaluna, Cayin, Rogue, etc ... I have a Primaluna Prologue Two and it's a whole lot of amp for the price. Also a tube rollers delight. With modern advancements like auto-bias and slow start circuitry.

 

You'll be missing out. I've owned all sorts of makes of and models of solid state receivers, integrated amps, preamps, and amps over the last 44 years and my Fisher 500C is the one of the best audio purchases that I've ever made. It's not even close to being "fragile". I use restored solid state McIntosh ( C29 preamp and MC2105 amp ) in my bedroom system and I would part with it before I would ever consider parting with my Fisher. Just like any piece of vintage audio gear a used Fisher tube receiver needs to restored by someone who know what they're doing. Avery Fisher was the MAN!