"Flat transfer" CD list

So how can we tell which UDII's are exact clones of their UDI counterparts? I think we've already decided that Dark Side of the Moon qualifies as different, but what else? I know it sounds like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I just find it hard to believe MFSL would go through the extra time and effort to make the UDII different from UDI releases (previous Floyd example notwithstanding).

 

Dave: Since you have identified yourself as a fan of "flat transfers", would you like to take a shot at answering the questions posed by Steve and I? Here are the questions:

Steve: How do you know which CD's are flat transfers? Do you have inside information, or are you just guessing because it sounds un-futzed-with?

Me: What I don’t understand is: how do you know if something is a “flat transfer” unless you have heard the actual master tape and done a comparison?


Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful commentary!

 

This makes sense to me. Maybe I'll have to pick this one up and give a listen.

 

Well, that's not exactly what I said. *Some* "flat-transfer" albums sound better. On the other hand, some "mastered" albums sound better. As I've been saying all along, I'm not willing to say "most flat transfers are better than most mastering jobs", simply because I don't feel that is true. I've heard plenty of "mastered" CDs - not by Steve - that sound very, very good.

 

Well, both Tommy and Quadrophenia are clones. That's not to say they are "exactly" alike. Bit for bit they are slightly different, but are obviously taken from the same digital tape.

 

Indeed. Noise reduction, narrowed down stereo, bass moved, etc... Plus the fact that it simply doesn't sound very open next to the London.

 

Are you saying that on your non-flat transfer CDs the tape hiss isn't "balanced"?

As would just about all of us. However, it usually isn't that cut and dried. Most "mastered" CDs aren't *that* bad. Many are really good.

Anyone who wants to listen to "The Man And His Music", raise your hand!

 

Thanks Steve, can you define "balanced tape hiss" as opposed to "unbalanced" tape hiss? (I guess) Maybe you have an example or two in mind? I have a lot of cd's and I didn't trade in anything I bought in the 80's.

 

Actually, I'm very happy to hear some people actually prefer the sound of the newer CDs, as this means the older CDs will continue to show up on eBay and half.com where they can be snatched up for cheap!

1993 is indeed a good gauge for me too. I tend to avoid CDs remastered after this date, unless I hear it was remastered by one of the engineers on my "approved mastering engineers" list. Don't worry Steve, you're on the list...

Of course exceptions abound, but I no longer rush down to the local CeeDee mart every time a favorite artist is remastered. Heck, for that matter, I don't even buy too much digital media lately, as our local music joint is now selling mint vinyl for $.49, which generally beats the CDs and SACDs hands down! But that's a different thread...

 

I don't have a tuner right now, but I understand your explanation and I'll try this out - makes sense to me!

CASE BY CASE BASIS - gotcha!

I would love to hear some mono Sam Cooke. Curse you people for making me want to buy a turntable for stuff like this.

 

The question is, what are the folks at BMG and ABKCO doing (wrong) these days? Not having the mono mixes or the multitracks, the ABKCO remixes in particular sound pretty good. No extra echo like on the original mixes...

 

This thread has evolved into a "which sounds better" thread rather than my original intent. It was just supposed to be a place where known flat transfers could be listed. Whether or not anyone prefers said transfer is, as always, a matter of opinion.
Now how about some more titles?

 

And those are my feelings exactly!

 

OK, off the top of my head, let's see what I can come up with:

THE BEATLES-The White Album-Capitol-AAD
CAMEO-Single Life-Atlanta Artists-DDD
CAMEO-Word Up-Atlanta Artists-DDD
BANGLES-Different Light-Columbia-AAD
ATLANTA RHYTHM SECTION-Best Of-Polydor-AAD
LINDA RONDSTAT-Greatest Hits-DCC-AAD
RICK JAMES-Come Get It-Gordy-AAD

 

Thanks for getting this back on track.

Of course the ultimate would then be for Steve (and I know it is asking a lot and it would probably not be appropriate for him) to give us a guide list of EQ settings to help those flat transfers. Of course it wouldn't replace Steve actually mastering the tapes himself, but a list like:

Beatles- White Album 250hz -3db, 3K -2db, 10K -1.5db. (FOR EXAMPLE ONLY-- DON'T USE 'CAUSE I MADE THEM UP)

would be help us make those discs sound better until Steve gets to them.

 

I understand where you're coming from, Dean, but here's the problem: how can you be sure when you've got a flat transfer? My supposition on such things is that you're less likely to get a lot of processing on budget/special products titles, but only because, since they're going for $7.99 and aimed toward the impulse buyer at WalMart, why would any label put extra money and time into tweaking the tapes? I also presume that when master tapes are digitally transferred, they're done 'flat' anyway, since any adjustments can be made when the time comes to pull the digital tapes and do the 'upgraded' editions.
Put another way, if I were a betting man, quite a few of the '80s MCA titles--with or without Steve--would be 'flat' transfers, if not necessarily from first generation sources(though one always hopes they are). MCA's Kenny Rogers CDs don't sound processed at all: just listen to all the hiss that was left in. The Mamas & Papas albums on CD sound 'flat' to me, and there must be quite a few Sony Music Special Products discs going into the '90s that don't have very much processing going on, as so many of them have 45 edits and the like, 2nd or 3rd generation tapes, so what would be the point? Currently, some of the Collectables remasters from the Sony catalog may well be 'flat'; when you think of how many dozens get issued in so short a time, it seems unlikely any heavy work was done on the sound.
And while RCA was constantly ruining sound throughout the '80s on virtually anything they touched, overseas I hear something different. My copy of HARRY NILSSON'S GREATEST HITS[RCA PD 89081]certainly sounds 'flat' and in any case in no way resembles his PERSONAL BEST anthology, soundwise. Some Bowie fans would argue his RCA import titles from the '80s are the best sounding of them all, but one thing is certain: the Ryko and Virgin titles each were tweaked in certain ways, regardless of whether the RCA's are 'flat' transfers or not. I've also heard those Elvis imports that sound like they're from 5th generation tape(at best)yet probably are indeed 'flat': at the time, there were all sorts of Presley comps issued in Europe, and likely remastered quickly, with no muss or fuss.
Finally, Phil Spector's mono CDs on Abkco have been drawing derision for years...while people love the music, it's hard to find any rave reviews for the sound quality, yet you never hear a vinyl hound saying his clean Philles 45's sonically suck. Is it possible BACK TO MONO and the act comps were transferred fairly 'flat,' yet this actually serves to hurt the sound quality rather than help it, that compression might be what makes those recordings work? Who knows?
Well, have fun, and good luck tracking 'flat' goodies down; you're going to need it!

ED

 

FWIW Steve, that was me you're referring to, and I do actually like the Foreigner disc. It just doesn't come together like an album, that's all. I like that all the tracks are mastered flat, otherwise I'd sell it. It's just that I don't want all my discs mastered that way!

In other words, it's worth picking up, even just to hear the effect.

The balanced hiss issue makes sense too. I never gave it too much conscious thought, but I was listening for that kind of thing. Like a frequency bump (or drop) in the hiss, almost like listening to pink noise when calibrating bias on a cassette deck. Thanks for the tip.

 

Funny story. This strikes me as Streisand playing into her image as a perfectionist, about on the same level as saying a steak was grilled for one second too long. There'd be a more noticeable difference than a 1/4dB eq move if one changed his listening position by an inch.

 

Donna Summer-On The Radio Greatest Hits Vol. 1 & 2-Casablanca-AAD

 

"I'd rather hear a neutral CD made from an LP tape copy than a no-noised, compressed remastered version made from the master tape.

You are allowed to feel differently people; we can still be friends!"

...as stated by Steve H.

Memorize the above statement...and the one about "the magic's in the midrange"....pearls of wisdom!

These are the reasons why I will continue to buy products mastered by Steve!

also,

Ed said what I would've said (very well I might add!) regarding Special Products/Special Markets Divisions of major labels. They are GENERALLY flat transfers because they are sold CHEAPLY! There isn't money in the budget to tamper with the sound. Steve told us all that usually some in-house engineer just transfers what's there...and doesn't add or take away anything. This CAN BE a good thing, especially when a quality, low-generation tape is used. But remember what Steve said above...even an lp tape copy that is un-futzed can come across as MORE MUSICAL!

I buy tons of Special Markets/Products CDs for a couple of reasons:

They are cheap
They tend to have songs which are otherwise ignored by major releases
They tend to reflect, what I think, the master sounds like
...Did I mention they are cheap!

I don't think you could really start to list CDs that are flat transfers...there may be thousands!

Don't sweat the "flat transfer" thing anyway... whatever sounds good to YOU is what you should listen to...even if that means NO-Noised or overly bright CDs. Don't let others tell you what you should like. Take it ALL in, then decide for yourself!

 

And that's when it get's personal

 

A bit OT by now, I guess, but I just gave a quick headphone check to this "NM" CD of Tommy, and I didn't hear large pops between these songs. A little bump at the end of the last strum of "It's A Boy," but that sounds like a tape artifact, not like a digital glitch, and certainly not a large pop.

The catalog number is MCA02-10005. No copyright date other than 1984; I know the CD came out later than that. No mastering credits.

When I get a chance, I'll do some proper listening and A/B comparisons and report on whether this CD seems to be a flat transfer.