Forum Influence On Your Ears

This goes out to other newbies like myself, or to those who remember when they were new to this forum. Since discovering the Forum about a month ago, it has been a great source of information and pleasure to me. I look at it several times a day, and it has helped me procure (or still waiting) for the Stones' SACD's at the best price I could get.

However, in reading the debates on the new Stones discs and DVD-A vs SACD, it became obvious to me that I hear a lot of the same mantras over and over, and wondered to myself "do these guys really like music to sound a certain way" or are they overly influenced by the Forum. An early example for me was the original Led Zeppelin domestic CD's (pre Box Set and Page/Marino remastering). Those old CD's are the absolute worst CD's I have ever bought. And no amount of "but Steve said that they're a flat transfer" will convince me otherwise. They were totally laden with hiss. But wait, I now hear that that's a good thing!! And then I read about how "I hope you can score some old Led Zep CD's in your travels". Hey, I would have given them to you, if I knew you a few years ago!!!

Anyway, my point is, I know what I like, especially within the limitaions of my mid-fi system. Perhaps the old Led Zep "flat transfers" sound spectactular on Steve's or Luke system. On mine, they were crap. I predict that on this Forum, in a few years or whenever, people will be clamouring for the very Beatles CD's that are now reviled as outdated. The best thing I've read is that if you want the old, pure sound, take out your vinyl and make a CD-R. Because most people I know think that The Beatles "1" sounds "amazing" (and they know nothing of No-Noise or that elusive Parlophone first issue). And the record companies hear this. But I guess I might be strange as well because I love "Live at Leeds - Deluxe Edition" and the 2-channel hi-rez mixes of Rumours and A Night At The Opera on DVD-A.

Anyway, I just had to write this after seeing a member get slated because he merely suggested that one might want to listen to the Stones discs themselves rather than join the mob mentality and scream about the lack of hiss on "Miss Amanda Jones". And, of course, the best response was from the individual that said that "hiss is considered bad out in the real world" (or words to that effect). Uhhh, yeah!!!

Apologies for the long post / rant. Still love the Forum more than any other.

Cliff - Toronto (still wondering what exactly my point was!!)

 

My ears influence my choices. I've always liked the DCC and MFSL Gold's. As re-master after re-master appeared, I would notice that I was getting brutal ear fatigue from the latest improved remastered version. I'll take the older Cds over the new in 90% of the time. We can all enlighten each. I always thought some hiss was a good thing. When removed, I feel like my ears are clogged! Hiss is natural. NoNoise is not!

 

Hi Cliff

Where did you read that the original domesic Zeppelin issues are the ones to have? I recall a discussion about the original W German and Japanese pressings (released in the US market). Domestically pressed CDs never entered into that one to my knowledge. And, even then, not everybody said they sound the best or were from original 1st gen mixes. Just that some sound to be flat transfers, which even then can sound like crap. But you know you have the sound of the master tape in your hands. Some of us like that. I'd rather have that and do my own "remaster" than have a remixed, maximized POS, which is essentially what we have with a lot of remasters. And the best Zeppelin has never been limited to CD copies. Some very cheap US reissue vinyl has surprised me (Houses Of The Holy being one). Steve mentioned the original domesic LP version of Physical Grafitti as having a sound close to the master tape. And many more of us have enjoyed a few of the Classic LP reissues of the Zep catalog. In other words, nothing is as simple as you've portrayed it.

No hiss *is* bad on vintage recordings, though the Miss Amanda Jones thing is a minor issue for me, since so much of what I've heard has been very good (BTB, Beggars, and LIB are great!). When you don't hear hiss, then you know the signal has been tampered with to the point that the music suffers. Transients are lost, noise gate issues creep into the picture, and the result is sonic death. That's a bad thing. You can hear this effect on even a mid-fi rig like mine or like Luke's.

If it weren't for knuckleheads like us, they'd maximize/no nose/process every single CD out there to the point of pain and no one would care. Beatles 1 is the ultimate example of this. I'd rather be a curmudgeon, thank you

end of counter-rant

 

How you precive sound is a matter of personal taste. No doubt this is a critical forum when it comes to sound quality, but thats why we are here. Just because the majority doesn't like sometime shouldn't mean that you can't like it. IMO these Stones CD's are getting an awful bashing. I'm a very happy with them and believe me I own just about ever version of each Stones album. But to tell you the truth unless there is a glaring problem with something I'm not going to spot it. Most here think that Peter Mew is the Antichrist. I've heard many CD's he's remastered that are good. Steve is a great engineer no doubt about it but there are many others as well.

I agree with you the remastered Zeppelin CD are better than the originals and the Classic LP are better still.

 

I guess Mike V agreed with me!! Certainly, Michael, I'm with you on the MSFL and DCC discs. I paid a premium, but it was worth it. And, yes, many new remasters are over-processed. But I am often taken aback when the same individual talks about hi-rez and those old Led Zep CD's as sonic masterpieces (at least my ears are taken aback). And then I do wonder: does he really think the Led Zep CD sounds good, or are you influenced because you heard it was a "flat transfer" with no No-Noise.

Cliff

 

I'm new as well. My impression on some of the chatter here is that some posts are of a subjective nature. That's fine by me. What I look for here are some factual things. Like the missing backup vocal on Ruby Tuesday or the fact that I didn't even know there's a true stereo mix that I have of Mr. Farmer. That's the reason I read these forums and will continue to do so. I am just glad I've never traded in any of my cds even when I bought a remaster. Seems the remasters are not cracked up what they're supposed to be (at times)

Mud-

 

No.. Just too quick with the "reply" button!

Mike

 

Hey Cliff:

Caveat: This is in no way is meant to disrespect your system you listen on, especially since I do not know what it consists of.

Remasters that have been subjected to overuse of compression and noise reduction and other "tweaks" very often sound just fine on low resolution systems. Mo-Fi LP's should sound just great on systems that roll off the frequency extremes, as should "bright" sounding remasters.

The industry sort of caters to the lowest common denominator and creates records that sound great on boomboxes, radio, TV, portable CD players. This is where their mass market lies. THis is teh market where they want the "improvement" to be heard. And this McDonalds mentality is the big stumbling block for people seeking accurate sound.

Yet when you play them on hi-rez gear, all the tampering and misuse of equipment stands right out like pimples under a florescent light. So when we return to the previously "inferior" original CD's, the lack of these additive artifacts is like removing a pebble from inside your shoe. But on a lower rez system, they would sound muffled and unexciting.

So it's all context.

 

Sometimes a woman looks good in the dark and not so good when you turn on the lights. Improving your system is like turning on the lights. Unfortunatly some recordings that we thought sounded good actually sound worse on a better system. I wonder if there is a name for this phenomenon?

Last weekend I won Led Zeppelin 1 & 2 (original Atlantic Cd's) and compared them to the first remasters, the 10 Cd box and the Early Days/Latter Days Greatest Hits. And to my surprise I preferred the original Atlantics! Perhaps on a lower-rez system I would come to a different conclusion.

 

Well, thanks all for the feedback. I think Mudbone said it best for me. I come here for the facts. I think with DCC and MSFL you get the natural sound because those mastering have taken the time (and we the customer pay for it in to the tune of big dollars). My opinion still is that the earlier releases (like the first Atlantic Led Zep domestic releases) were just transferred and not mastered properly for CD. By the way, I would define my system as high mid-fi.

There's another discussion thread on Forum Influence that's capturing how I feel. There's no doubt that remastering and processing can ruin a CD. But there are very few mid-late eighties domestic CD's that I've heard (on a variance of systems) that I find tolerable.

Cliff

 

just curious -- had you already read the debate about the old vs. new LZ discs here , before your surprise?

 

Well, did I glance at "The Grapes Of Wrath" before I learned to read or after?

After of course. It would have done me no good before. I hadn't been taught yet.

 

Search for simplicity. If comments in these forums make you think about sound quality when listening to music then go away. Right now!! before it is too late.

Out of sheer ignorance mostly, I manage to cut off my critical mind when listening to music. Unless faults jump at me and and force me to pay attention.

The more you know the greater the risk of losing your ability to fully enjoy the music.

Ignorance is bliss. Innocence is a gift.

 

I had read some of the debate but had already made up my mind that the Early Days/Latter Days were best. Didn't have the Atlantics to compare.
Just shows that we each have to decide which version we prefer by LISTENING for ourselves.

Same with the DSOTM UDI vs UDII debate. When I had the opportunity to compare the two I absolutely preferred the UDI.

One of the great things about this site is reading other people's take on different pressings. From there I can confirm for myself which I prefer.

"You say Tomato, I say Tomawto"

 

Personally, I think this thread should be retitled "Forum Influence on Your Wallet." This forum sure has caused me to buy a lot more discs, but I'm not complaining. The good discs purchased are in the very high numbers and the poor discs might be one or two, if that. I've done much worse following the recommendations at other web forums.

 

Cliff,

FWIW, I think most forum members were already discriminating listeners before they got here. I really don't think much rubbed off. I suspect whenever each of us came here, we just saw others like ourselves and figured we "belonged". I hated excessive compression and questionable EQ long before I landed here, as did most members...which is why posts regarding this subject tend to be so vehement. No need to feel pressured about what sounds "right"...trust YOUR ears and stick around as there are so many opportunities to learn and share knowledge here.

 

I've always cared about good sound quality...I figure what's the point of a semi decent hi-fi system if the source material sounds BAAAD.

What has happened to me since joining the forum back in March (it seems like a lifetime ago now!) is that I'm so much less tolerent of average mastering quality...which means that there is some music in my collection that I now find really hard to listen to...and yes, my wallet is also a lot lighter these days!!!

 

You are so right!

 

It's too late. Once the bug strikes, it becomes a lifelong obsession.

The upside is that when you hear something well done, you appreciate it all the more.

 

Thank you for the refreshing thread Cliff. The forum more or less influences my ideas about music and mastering, much more so that what I hear. For instance most people on this forum enjoy the MFSL The Wall and DSOTM over and above the current Capitol/Harvest remasters. Even though I have owned both, I still think the current remasters are more enjoyable to listen to in light of what others on the forum think. Unfortunately the process of hearing and listening are very subjective, so we all listen for different things.

I am very greatful for this forum and have much respect for most of it's members. But ultimately we as individuals must decide what sounds right.

Thanks to all.

 

Errr, now I understand. You're asking me to stay away from here?

 

It would take something like the procedure depicted in "A Clockwork Orange".