‘Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim’ Expanded 50th Anniversary Edition

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Bob F, Feb 22, 2017.

  1. JP Christian

    JP Christian Forum Resident

    I pulled the trigger on the new (black) vinyl issue as I could get it for just under £15 - I also have a slightly battered UK mono so it will be interesting to compare, and I may also pick up a UK stereo copy fairly cheaply off eBay if I wish to compare the two different stereo mixes directly...
     
  2. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    As Mom used to say "That's why they make chocolate and vanilla!" I applaud you for posting this and above all... I am THRILLED you are enjoying the new record. After all, differences aside, isn't this what we are all here for? MUSIC ENJOYMENT? (Thanks for the clarification about those of us who "grew up" with this album!):cool:
     
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  3. Gardo

    Gardo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    This may not be the right thread, but then I'm not sure which one would be - at any rate, I just wanted to say that because of this thread and the "Complete Reprise Sinatra/Jobim" thread I finally got a copy of the FAS/ACJ album. First pressing, lots of scratches but no skips, and good groove condition. One dollar. I'll say what is no news at all to anyone on this thread: what an extraordinary album! Thank you all for helping to lead me to it.
     
  4. Bob F

    Bob F Forum Resident Thread Starter

  5. JP Christian

    JP Christian Forum Resident

    I just picked up what I assume is an original or early EU Reprise CD from the late 80's at a guess, it has no mastering details - is this the original mix or a remix?

    Edit - a stereo UK original LP arrived this week and I forgot it was in the 'to be cleaned' pile - the CD I have has Frank's 'chings', the LP doesn't...
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
  6. Bob F

    Bob F Forum Resident Thread Starter

    All CD issues are remixes, with Frank's "ching-ching"s.
     
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  7. JP Christian

    JP Christian Forum Resident

    Chings aside - the original UK stereo LP mix is a muddy, nothing but mid-range mess, the (remix) CD sounds so much better, I think I can live with the chings, even if they shouldn't be there...
     
  8. Until very recently I'd only ever heard this album with the "ching-ching"s included via the 1998 CD so to finally hear an original mix minus those additions (my Japanese stereo LP from 1980) is a strange experience. It feels like something is missing and edited out! Personally speaking I think the "ching-ching"s are quite charming but I can also understand why they might offend some purists who have been listening to this for 50 years.
     
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  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Audiophile Music Mastering Your Host

    Let's understand. Nothing wrong with Frank's chings. I find them charming. But back in 1967 the decision to edit them out must have been a weighty one; it was VERY hard to edit all of them out. Many edits had to be made and mix moves (or both). It was not an idle decision and we need to respect their intentions. It was thought out and probably agonized over. Frank probably agreed with the removal or it wouldn't have been done.

    We must remember that.
     
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  10. The Panda

    The Panda Forum Mutant

    Location:
    Marple, PA, USA
    I know I would not want to have been the one who told Frank they were being cut.
     
  11. JP Christian

    JP Christian Forum Resident

    So currently no digital version available of the original mix?

    The SQ on the original UK Stereo LP is pretty rotten - would that be a bad cut or is the original mix muddy and nothing but mid-range?

    I'd rather have the superior sounding remix with the chings than the original mix any day if it's the mix that sounds like that and not my particular UK pressing...
     
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  12. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    I'm sure it was Sonny Burke. Mr. S trusted him implicitly. As Steve has mentioned many times before, Sonny wanted "perfect records", hence the many audits in the final product. I'm sure Mr. S had no problem with the finished product of any of his albums that Sonny produced.
     
  13. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona
    This may mean the CDs are closer to the actual performance that took place in the studio. Less edits is what I am reading from this discussion.
     
  14. chacha

    chacha Forum Resident

    Location:
    mill valley CA USA
    Perhaps Frank wanted them removed?
     
  15. The Panda

    The Panda Forum Mutant

    Location:
    Marple, PA, USA
    interesting thought
    I just think Frank as a guy who felt when 'it's done, it's DONE.' No 'retakes' once it's done, which is why the 'That's Life' story makes you cringe inside. But as I said, what if Frank had second thoughts.............
     
  16. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona
    Had not listened to the 1998 CD in quite a while as I usually always opt for the vinyl. Listening to it now, somehow it sounds slowed down compared to the various vinyl copies I have. This is not grabbing me at all.

    Or maybe it's just Monday.......
     
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Audiophile Music Mastering Your Host

    Doesn't matter who wanted it done, Frank approved the test pressing back in 1967.

    If he was alive today what would he want? I think he would want the same thing that was released in 1967. I think he would cringe that any alternate versions (or bonus alternate takes) were being issued. He was more involved than you think.

    The fact that NO mix in the CD era (that's 1985 until now, folks) gets this great and classic album right is just crazy. Lazy, revisionism or just befuddlement?
     
  18. Guitarded

    Guitarded Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana
    Whiskey and a smoke.
     
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  19. Eric Carlson

    Eric Carlson Active Member

    Location:
    Valley Center, KS
    I want to thank everyone who loves the Sinatra & Jobim recordings for writing passionately and persistently about them. I listened to the Concord release of the recordings some time ago and really, really disliked them and Sinatra's performances in particular on most of the songs. They often sounded like run throughs and not performances he would have released or even liked. I know I didn't like them.

    Yesterday I found a well worn copy of Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim in a local thrift store. It was the 1998 Entertainer of the Century CD release on Reprise. I took a look in the booklet and saw Lee Herschberg as engineer and for digital mastering and Gregg Geller as reissue producer. Those were positives. For whatever it is worth it was marked 20-bit digitally remastered and stamped for promotional use only on the booklet. I wasn't even sure it would play, but for some reason I thought maybe this one will sound different.

    I still thought about it far too much before finally deciding to just buy it. I wouldn't be losing much if it didn't play or I still didn't like it. As on many trips, I had my 14-year old daughter along and I told her I didn't know whether the recording would be any good or not.

    As we listened through most of the CD driving home, I was floored. I couldn't believe these were the same recordings. I suddenly loved them, every single one of the ten songs. They are great. I kept telling my daughter that and that I couldn't understand why I felt differently this time.

    I'm a little curious to listen to the Concord recordings again, but I don't ever want to spoil what I hear now. I'm likely off on a hunt to find an original mono LP sometime and I'm sure it will sound wonderful. Until then I may have to go for the 50th anniversary edition as well. But I never even would have considered listening again if you all didn't write so much about these recordings. I would have really missed out.

    Thank you!
     
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  20. ArneW

    ArneW Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Cologne, Germany
    Your best bet is clean 1980s vinyl, which doesn't cost a fortune. If you like the sound of the 50th anniversary edition, go for it.
     
  21. Bob F

    Bob F Forum Resident Thread Starter

    That was a selling point for all of the EOTC CDs from both Reprise and Capitol.

    (In the case of the 16 Capitol releases, the increased digital resolution was not worth much, as it was far outweighed by poor mastering. Such was not the case for most of the 12 Reprise EOTC's, including this one.)

    Note that one need not rummage through thrift stores to find this CD. All of the OOP Reprise EOTC versions were reissued by UMG in the EU from 2009–12 (and/or in the US in 2014) and they are still available new. E.g.:

    Frank Sinatra, Antonio Carlos Jobim, Claus Ogerman - Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim - Amazon.com Music
    Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim by Frank Sinatra, Antonio Carlos Jobim: Amazon.co.uk: Music
     
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  22. Beaneydave

    Beaneydave Forum Resident

    I hate to ask this , as I could check myself, but aren't the tracks on the complete suitcase sans Ching chings?


    Dave
    Peace and love✌
     
  23. Bob F

    Bob F Forum Resident Thread Starter

    No.
     
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  24. roda12

    roda12 Member

    I always found the Ching chings annoying. Imho they really spoil the soft and romantic mood of the album. And the subtle depth of the album. Also it is hard to believe that they were appearent in the original masters. Because they always sound to me like overdubbed and artificial. Sometimes it even sounds as if it's always the same Ching ching used several times in different tracks. Anyone agree?
     
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  25. HGN2001

    HGN2001 Mystery Picture Member

    I *have* noticed that the chings seem to have different mic presence than Mr. Sinatra's main vocals - telling me that they were either flown in from somewhere else - or he turned his head quickly away from the mic while doing his chinging.
     

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