"Francis Albert Sinatra & Antônio Carlos Jobim" Reprise LP FS-1021 studio take numbers, etc.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Jun 29, 2016.

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  1. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Jan-Feb. 1967, Western Recorders, is that correct, experts? My notes just say United/Western. One or the other, I believe it's Western due to the photos taken but some people say United.

    Is it true that Guitarist Al Viola took Tom's place and played his Spanish Acoustic on "Change Partners" due to Jobim's difficulty with the track on the album? Does anyone have a list of the actual musicians who played on these sessions?

    I found my hand scrawled notes on this album. Have I posted this before? If not, here ya go:

    FS-1021 United/Western, A&R director: Joseph Francis "Sonny" Burke, arranged and conducted by Claus Ogerman.

    Four Channel Scully: track assignments:

    Channel 1 ORCHESTRA LEFT
    Channel 2 TOM J.
    Channel 3 FRANCIS S.
    Channel 4 ORCHESTRA RIGHT

    Recording engineer: Lee Hirschberg, Feb. 2, 1967 Editing and assembly engineer: Lee. Mixing and mastering, date unknown, mix/stereo/mono by Lee H.

    1/30/67: 4807, 4808, 4809, 4810
    1/31/67: 4811, 4812, 4813, 4814
    2/1/67: 5815, 4816 plus "Drinking Again" K-4817 (take 2 master take) and "Something Stupid" K-4818 (take 10 master take).

    Original album running order, changed at last minute (something on side B switched places)
    or was it the other way around? Can't remember now all these years later.

    Side one:


    K-4813-take 4 intercut with 1, 2, 3, 10 edits The Girl From Ipanema
    K-4809-take 9 Dindi
    K-4810-take 2 Change Partners
    K-4811-take unknown, 3 intercut edits Quiet Nights Of Quiet Stars
    K-4814-takes 3 & 5 Meditation

    Side two:


    K-4812-take 7 intercut, two edits If You Never Come To Me
    K-4816-take 7 How Insensitive
    K-4808-take 4 I Concentrate On You
    K-4807-take 7 intercut two edits Baubles, Bangles & Beads
    K-4815-take 10 Once I Loved

    The high take numbers on some songs were basically due to clams by the band. Frank was on top of his game and the occasional edit on his vocal was just a phrasing change decided on in post production by Sonny Burke.

    A personal note: I've heard a lot of this stuff, having done a (rejected) version of this album for WB from scratch (trying to match up takes damn near killed me), Elliot Mazer did a Quad or 5.1 vers1on as well, (also rejected). My point being, after hearing all this stuff, Frank Sinatra was in charge. He would stop takes, direct tempo and do other things that a producer would normally do. He made suggestions for every song and what he said, went. Frank was totally on top of it and in full charge.
    Frank Sinatra and Antonio Carlos-Jobim at United.jpg
     
  2. I333I

    I333I Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ventura
    This being one of my favorites of all time, I'd love to know the details, too. Never heard that Al Viola took over for a bit.
     
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  3. Smartin62

    Smartin62 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cleburne, Tx USA
    I'm no expert (apologies to BobF, et al), but the book "Put Your Dreams Away" by L. C. do Nascimento Silva puts those sessions from Jan-Feb 1967 at Western Recorders. Can't help much with your second question except that Al Viola is listed as a guitarist for the session on Jan 30, 1967, the only date listed in the book for "Change Partners" plus 4 other songs for that date. The book does state that Jobim told Silva that he and Romao did not play on "Drinking Again" for the Feb 1, 1967 session.

    Hope this helps.
     
  4. The Panda

    The Panda Forum Mutant

    Location:
    Marple, PA, USA
    Not as many intercuts as I thought (aside from Ipanema of course)
     
  5. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    I know the mono is NOT a dedicated mix and was mixed from the four track because of the ad-lib burblings, etc. The stereo LP I have really sucks, D-Essed BIG time. The mono that @MMM loaned me was much better.

    @MLutthans, please, add something, links or whatever. What is the best sounding version?
     
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  6. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
  7. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Steve, I personally like the "MONO" Reprise LP and the "Entertainer Of The Century" Reprise CD!
     
    paulmock and MLutthans like this.
  8. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    That ain't right, it's take 2 not 9 and I don't see the musicians that Tom brought with him from the old country listed!

    I know it was take 2, I was very careful when writing down the master take numbers. I didn't want to screw up and dupe the wrong performance (like everyone who came after me seems to have done!)
     
  10. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Good to know, as I have been hunting everywhere for the "outtakes" to all of the sessions from the Sinatra/Jobim recordings. You apparently have heard them and GOD only knows how much that I would love to. All that I have found thus far, are the outtakes of "Once I Loved", "How Insensitive" and "Drinking Again".
     
  11. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    How so, were those released? Bootlegged? Don't tell me they dumped the session reels and dumpster divers got them? Say it ain't so!!

    Weird, the outtakes were not great, just "waiting for the magic take to come together for the master take" so I'm not sure you would be thrilled..
     
  12. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Steve, I also have the Reprise STEREO 180 gram vinyl, that was mastered and pressed at RTI and I've always wondered if that was yours and/or Kevin Grey's work? It's another keeper!
     
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  13. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    That was Kevin but tell me (have not heard it) did it contain Frank's ad-lib burbling (matching Tom's?) If so, a remix. If not, the (only stereo tape that is usable) it's the Dolby A protection copy, wisely made in the 1990s before the original stereo mix just melted. Hopefully it's that, a great sounding safety tape of Lee's original mix.
     
  14. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Found them through friends and on the web. I personally could listen all day to Sinatra doing take after take, while he and the orchestra find the perfect take and I find listening to all of his outtakes, as a learning lesson from the chairman of recording live in the studio!
     
  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Really. That must have happened recently, or within the past 10 years or so. Wasn't the album remixed and released again? Had to be where those came from.
     
  16. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    First comment:
    [​IMG]
    Great photo, and is there anything more handsome than an RCA77 in its "broadcast umber" (I think that's the terminology) variation? Such a good-looking mic, and that one looks "minty." Interesting that at their later sessions (a couple years later), different miking was used:
    SinatraJobim.jpg
    Secondly:
    I've now managed to scrounge up three copies of the mono LP -- and I've yet to play even one of them! That's on my bucket list, I guess, but I'm not there yet. I've got some stereo LPs, as well, but nothing reaches out and grabs me quite like the 1998 CD that @Chris C mentions above. I've never done any sort of "formal" comparison of the different versions, but I very much enjoy the 1998 CD for this album. IIRC, it's remixed by Lee H.
     
  17. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    It's been a while since I've listened to that pressing, but I seem to remember it somewhat matching Lee's remix that is heard on the "Entertainer Of The Century" CD. I'll have to replay it and get back to you on that. Meantime, i'm sure that Matt, MMM or Bob F. can advise on this one?
     
  18. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Matt, just a note for you, on that first pic (the one I posted) I believe there are TWO mics on him, the RCA and the other one (only the stand is there). Didn't I see a pic of that mic with a wash rag or some sort of packing foam over it? If they tried to combine those mikes there would be some really crapping phasing going on but I didn't hear that on the record. A lot of distortion from the guitar though, typical United/Western sound.
     
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  19. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Yeah, I saw that second stand there. I wonder what the guitar mic was.

    I'm not familiar (off the top of my head) with the photo you mention, but maybe @Bob F will chime in? He may know.

    Mad Man Muntz perferred this over all other versions:
    SinatraJobimMuntz1.JPG SinatraJobimMuntz2.JPG
     
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  20. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    I've got that LP (the one that Kevin cut) but don't recall the edit/mix details. Maybe I can give it a spin later today to check.
     
    Chris C likes this.
  21. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    What I have found are really raw, not anywhere near the finished quality of the album takes, but there is a LOT of studio chatter, along with a bunch of trial and error. I have 10 outtakes of "Once I Loved", 7 of "How Insensitive" and 6 of "Drinking Again". I realize that the song "Something Stupid" was also recorded at the tail end of those Sinatra/Jobim sessions (By the way, love the studio chatter that you officially provided on the DCC CD "For My Dad"!) and the other day I found a version of that song with only Frank and without Nancy. I'm guessing that he possibly recorded his part first and they added Nancy later? Unusual for Frank to do it that way, but I guess that he never had a duet partner at United/Western.
     
  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Oh, my....I've got 7 LP pressings of this one, and all I ever play is the CD! I guarantee you that at least 5 of these have never been on my turntable. :help:
     
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  23. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    First of all, those breakdowns weren't counted as actual takes, so there are only two "approved" takes of Drinkin' Again, etc. Outtakes can be deceiving sometimes. Were they all "slated"?

    Frank and Nancy recorded SS live, never overdubbed so what you have is probably her channel faded down? They were on separate tracks for balancing later in the mixing.. Make sense?
     
  24. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Quite elusive.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    If this is the same session, it was a Shure 545:

    [​IMG]
     
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  25. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Bigger shot. No tie. Different day? Definitely a 545 on the guitar though, and still the 77-DX for the vocal.

    [​IMG]
     
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