Frank Sinatra's Capitol and Reprise recordings now under one roof

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Bob F, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    C'mon guys, it's... iconic! :hide: <— (hiding from Paul Mock)
     
  2. bozburn

    bozburn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, US
  3. David m bond

    David m bond Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Isn't that considered a double post!
     
  4. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    That's not exactly how I understand it Ron. I've read (somewhere) that Hefti wanted equal billing with Sinatra and Basie. When Frank said no, then Hefti said (cutting off his nose to spite his face, in my estimation) that he'd prefer no arranging credit.

    Someone else may have already brought this up. I'm only now catching up on this thread.
     
  5. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Frank certainly thought so. On one of his TV shows (Bob will know which one) FS introduced a street lamp as "an old friend," implying that it was one of the visual signatures of his albums.
     
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  6. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Right! Although, I don't know where that rose came from. Should be violets for her furs.....
     
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  7. GroovinGarrett

    GroovinGarrett Mrs. Stately's Garden

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Isn't it iconic?

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. grumpy old man

    grumpy old man Forum Resident

    Here comes another announcement. According to Amazon GE, the LP Watertown will be released on November 28.
     
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  9. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    A Man and His Music (1965): "I'd like you to meet a friend of mine, folks... When I first met him, I was skinnier than he was."
     
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  10. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    They have a mighty big roof, though. :D
     
  11. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Look....guys...I have NOTHING against the street lamp, the story, the posters or any of that. YES! Frank and that lamp are like salt & pepper or whatever other match you wish to come up with. It is just that the frigging word ICONIC has been attached to EVERYTHING. Hence, what is not iconic anymore?

    Whatever happened to words like classic, well-known, celebrated, renowned, etc.? It is the new "black" in the English language I guess!
     
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  12. Pants Party

    Pants Party MOSTLY PEACEFUL

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Yes!! The street lamps embody what it is about these albums that I love -- the late night loner, out and about, after hours. Party's over. These albums really are the BEST.
     
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  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

  14. Millington

    Millington Forum Resident

    If we get the 12-inch twofer, that's fine with me but I've never liked the cover art mashup above. Especially when Songs For Young Lovers has the nicer/ better cover. The cover art above is ugly to me.[/QUOTE]
    Yeah, he looks
    He looks well pickled, on this photo.
     
  15. Millington

    Millington Forum Resident

    Same here, please reissue in 10" form Universal
     
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  16. Millington

    Millington Forum Resident

    Of course, there is the song from just after the Tbone Dorsey era, called "The Lamplighters Serenade"
     
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  17. MarkusGermany

    MarkusGermany WINNING

    Location:
    Rheinberg, Germany
    "Moonlight Sinatra" (2014 remaster) is in the German iTunes Store now!
     
  18. Beaneydave

    Beaneydave Forum Resident

    It looks more like Fred MacMurray!
     
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  19. MarkusGermany

    MarkusGermany WINNING

    Location:
    Rheinberg, Germany
    OK, I could not resist and downloaded my fourth "new" album (Moonlight Sinatra) from itunes. The SQ is so much better IMO than the original Reprise CD. I think I have to stop buying all these new releases. Maybe UMe will present all of them in a big box set (more albums have been announced now: Watertown etc.) So my dream of a proper remastered set could become true in 2015.
     
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  20. bozburn

    bozburn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, US
    They're releasing Watertown? This is getting better and better.
     
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  21. Pants Party

    Pants Party MOSTLY PEACEFUL

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    A post a few pages back mentioned an upcoming vinyl release. If so -- hopefully a Hi-Res download too.

    Watertown in 24/192?! :goodie: Even if, like Moonlight, it's a 24/44, I'm definitely in.
     
  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Re: Moonlight Sinatra
    I am back home now and have really had a chance to "live with this" for a couple of days, and am still quite comfortable with those comments, and will also add:

    •There's something really funky going on with the right channel (bottom waveform on the segment shown below)) of the new HD version. Here's a pair of stereo waveforms: Original CD at left, new HD track at right:
    Screen shot 2014-10-22 at 11.42.00 AM.jpg
    The two left channels (upper waveforms) are at least reasonable facsimiles of each other -- not identical, but similar. The two right channels, though, are drastically different, and I think that's the result of a pretty significant goose-ing of the bass (which is on the right track).

    •The new HD version is definitely louder, and while that's not always a sin unto itself, I think, in this case, it's easy to fall for Ye Olde louder = better trick. It is louder, but, to my ears, it is definitely not better. (I think it's pretty poor.)

    To that end, let's do some comparing, with the volume factor taken out of the equations, using "Reaching for the Moon." (Thanks to @AJH for his help with this.)

    All HD clips below mirror those that are freely provided at prostudiomasters.com (no freebie music samples here), but these stem from the actual download, not from the samples. (I have dumped them down to 16/44.1, but cleanly, to no discernible audio detriment.)

    ALL CLIPS ARE LEVEL BALANCED to avoid "louder is better" syndrome. ALL CLIPS use the original CD first, the HD clip second.

    •Here are the opening strings: https://app.box.com/s/t2ya7urg701puqd02rcy. Not much earth-shattering there, although the HD version is slightly right-heavy compared to the original. No biggie.

    •First entrance of the bass: https://app.box.com/s/kd3b9rv520p28ri4kh3w - again, the HD is quite right-heavy. Also, on the original CD, around :07 into this clip, somebody is clearly heard turning a page, but it is largely eliminated on the HD version.

    •Some vocal passages: https://app.box.com/s/0zyoxt086wedwvrpmcps. To my ears, there's no comparing the two. The old CD wins hands down. Listen to the cymbals, listen to the sparkle on the voice. Yes, the reverb is a little more evident on the CD, but it's not obscenely heavy like on some Sinatra recordings. It's at a pleasantly appropriate/acceptable level, IMO. The HD vocal sounds dead, and the cymbals are under a blanket. Also, while the bass is louder on the HD version, it's not as clear or as defined to me. It sounds muffled, then boosted -- very artificial.

    •Finally, the big crescendo at the end of the first vocal passage: https://app.box.com/s/bhcbivt6r9b0b41n7wfm. There is supposed to be a crescendo there, but.....
    Screen shot 2014-10-22 at 12.36.17 PM.png ....it's been wiped out in the HD remaster (the right half of the image), while staying alive and well (and sounding really nice and naturally "open") on the original CD (left half of image).

    Once you start screwing around with dynamics, other stuff suffers, too. We tend to associate compression with dynamics, but it also alters phase relationships and tonal qualities, and here's a good example of that.

    Also, any of you who have ever played in an orchestra have heard this sort of thing from your conductor: "If you start quieter, when it comes time to play that crescendo, you'll actually have somewhere to go with that volume change. If you play the quiet parts too loudly, the crescendo won't have any impact." This song ebbs and flows, dynamically. It has great moments of relaxation and quietness, and some wonderful crescendos that roll in from time to time. The HD version takes those moments of respite that are the relaxed, quiet parts, and makes them less relaxed and quiet, so when the crescendos come along, they have no room in which to crescendo. Maybe I'm just the resident nut around here, but to me, that's really bad and should not be happening. Music ebbs and flows. This louder remaster not only has (IMO) sub-standard overall tone, but is all flow and no ebb, never letting the quiet parts sound relaxed. That part is hard to convey via brief little clips, but the HD version remains on high alert, start to finish. The CD lets it's guard down at the appropriate times, musically speaking. It breathes, where the HD holds it breath and clinches its muscles.

    Anyhoo, please have a listen to the above clips, and share your thoughts. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  23. SinatraFan

    SinatraFan Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the analysis, Matt. After playing those clips, I'll just stay with the original Reprise CD. It has a more natural sound compared to the HD download.
     
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  24. MarkusGermany

    MarkusGermany WINNING

    Location:
    Rheinberg, Germany
    Thanks Matt for your analysis. I have to check my old CD again for comparison. What can you say about the new Jolly Christmas remaster 2014?
    Did you have time to listen to my two clips from the "Mastered for iTunes" mastering?
     
  25. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

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