Genesis on Classic Records-Good Choice?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Thommo577, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Maestro63

    Maestro63 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Georgia
    Just get invisible touch and call it a day
     
  2. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Just purchased a VG+ US Pink Scroll last week- hipping from Deuschland....waiting. Saw Stwve Hackett Friday night-light great show! They performed 'The Musical Box' and 'The Fountain of Salmacis'! ❤
     
  3. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    For the pink scroll, note that only the UK pink scroll is what people rave about. US pink scrolls are not the same. You may know this already, but since you didn't specify, the price sounds too good to be true for a UK pink scroll in truly VG+ or better condition. By the way, I noticed one of your earlier references was to an album in "good plus" condition, which sounds like something to be avoided at all costs. My luck with UK sellers on Ebay has not been great--usually NM means VG+ at best, and VG+ means VG at best.
     
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  4. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    My German Philips Nursery Cryme has stamped matrix numbers as follows (and sounds wonderful to my ears and on my system): 10 AA6369 916 2Y 320 (Side A). For what it's worth, I bought it based on recommendations in another thread, so I'm not the only one to sing its praises. I really am curious about why we would have such polar opposite reactions, though. My understanding is that quality UK pink scrolls for that title will normally be well into the three figure range, though sometimes one can get lucky.

    I agree about the UK Porky for SEBTP, though I have no other pressing of the original mix of that one to compare
     
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  5. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Ugh! I cannot keep up here....the UK pink scroll was out of range for me, just not affordable. I read pink scroll, and since it was a 1st pressing, I went pink scroll. Worth having if it plays decently. I am just about ready to upgrade my Grado Black1 stylus to a green or blue.
     
  6. G E

    G E Senior Member

    I have trespass throughtrick of the tail mainly on VG++ us pressing. Lamb is the noisiest of the bunch.

    I'm on the hunt for U.K. 1st pressings but the pristine ones are pricey.

    I have the 200 g Classic pressing of lamb. It's a very nice pressing. Very quiet. On center pressing. I got it direct from Classic. It must have been one of their last in stock because it came without one of the lyrics sleeves. It was disclosed prior to sale.

    Sound wise it's decent. Gabriel's vocals were brought forward and bass is deep and taught. I prefer my first us pressing done by Peckham - I've had it 40+ years and I'm used to it.

    The Classic is for sale!

    No experience with the other Classic versions
     
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  7. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    It may be perfectly fine--just be aware that it isn't what people are talking about when they rave about pink scroll pressings. My memory is hazy, but I think I recall reading that the US releases are reversed, with the Large Hatters being the first US pressings of NC and the Pink Scrolls being second (but still very early). I have a copy of the US Large Hatter, which comes in a wonderful textured sleeve, and at first, the sound seemed impressively clear. After a bit of listening, though, I realized that it was kind of bright on my system. It could end up being a great match with your system, especially if you've found other pressings to be too dull.
     
  8. walrus

    walrus Staring into nothing

    Location:
    Nashville
    I'll defend 87.5% of that record till i die. It's a great 80's pop record with nice prog flourishes. It's not Foxtrot, nor is it trying to be.
     
  9. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Thanks, Mark- Sometimes it's overwhelming...to think I used to go to the local record shop, plunk down $6 or $7 for these albums, blissfully enjoy them because in a way it was ignorance. I didn't know about superior pressings, promos, etc...Played on my Dual 1214 through my Sony 5035 and Interaudio floor speakers...and so long before CD's and mp3's cleaned and sanitized everything.
    I prefer a crisp LP, it sounds dull not just because of my system but I have lost some of the upper end register in my hearing. This is the one on it's way to me.... praying it sounds good to me...

    Genesis - Nursery Cryme
     
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  10. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I hesitate to ask what you would be asking for the Classic Lamb.....
     
  11. G E

    G E Senior Member

    Good question! Let me do some research and I'll shoot you over an answer via PM. Give me a couple days to get back to you.
     
  12. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    OK... thanks
     
  13. G E

    G E Senior Member

    I have a German pressing as well as my original US pressing. The us version has more feel but it's a more coarse presentation than the Deutsch one. Suppers ready is a little nicer on German disc.

    I had a UK 1st pressing that looked pristine but 2 or three songs in there was a loud repetitive scratch that went on for a dozen or more revolutions. I didn't play any more of it and sent it back to seller for refund.

    I have learned to ask lots of specific questions of the seller's merchandise unless I have a track record with them. Then I only ask 2-3: is centered, weird odors, bad warp, repetitive pops, disc sheen, scribbles on sleeve/label and be sure to verify the dead wax inscriptions.

    If I'm paying $50-$100 for a slab of vinyl I insist on accurate representation.

    I don't mind skipping Starbucks forever or packing a lunch to take to work if that means an extra $100 a month for good records.

    One last comment, for now: get a decent record cleaner. Run all your records through it, old, new, ones you have had in your collection as an original owner.

    You will be flabbergasted by the sludge that shows up in the capture tank and how great your records sound afterwards. I built mine using key VPI parts and it turned out great.

    Here's the link on the build:

    New project - RCM ** Finished at last! **
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  14. NorthNY Mark

    NorthNY Mark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canton, NY, USA
    I suspect this one may be just what you are looking for--it is mastered by Bell Sound, who also mastered my US Large Hatter. That one is definitely the most "crisp" of all versions I've heard. I hope it sounds good for you!
     
  15. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Me too....Thanks!
     
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  16. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Thanks. The German pressing was awful. It was very muddy and muffled, with no punch at all. It also had a lot of tics and surface noise. The 1st UK Porky's is stupid expensive...I don't have the budget for $40-$100 LP's. It's getting kinda crazy. I will go up to $30 if it's NM, but not a VG+!

    My Grado Black1 is broken in now, but it may not be tracking very well, despite setting up the tonearm and counterweight properly. I sometimes increase the tracking force from 1.5 up to 2.0 or higher if the LP is noisy. Unfortunately, it doesn't work.
    I guess buying any used vinyl is a crapshoot, and I have not been having very good luck...
    I have to go cheap on the cleaning system, Spin Disc or at half the price, the Studebaker. I also may invest in a stylus upgrade to a green or blue...
     
  17. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    Genesis is one of my favorite artists. For over 15 years I've been on a kind of mission to get the best sounding (to me) records that were available of their catalog. Many hundreds of dollars and scores of records later, I have learned a lot.

    Firstly, 1970s Genesis albums on vinyl are among the most difficult categories of records I've ever tried to collect. That is, if you're picky with regard to audio and playback quality. Except for the notable exception of A Trick of the Tail, frankly I don't think the albums are particularly well-recorded. ATOTT is stunning and hifi demo quality, but albums like The Lamb and Foxtrot sound muddy. Not the performances, which are first rate, but the overall mixing and balances conspire to weaken the impact. For one thing, the drums are frequently buried, in an odd way. Some sounds, like the acoustic guitars will sound shimmering and lovely, where many other elements may come across as muted.

    Adding to the recording quality issues, Genesis albums tend to run extremely long, some close to 30 minutes a side. This is a serious problem on vinyl, because the levels need to be set unusually low to accommodate that much music on an LP side. This means the surface noise to music ratio is not going to be so good. And the many quiet pastoral Genesis acoustic moments are another challenge to reproduce on vinyl without being overshadowed by static and crackle. This is the nature of the vinyl beast.

    That's where the Classic Records pressings were a godsend, because the pressings (at least the ones I bought in the early 2000s) were great with regard to surface noise. Back then, they could be had for $20 to $30 a pop. I used to think the Classic Records were the absolute best way to hear Gabriel era Genesis, mainly because I was having such a frustrating time trying to get good sounding and good playing copies, and most options were not panning out. And I sure tried a bunch of options...

    After a while I found vintage pressings that I liked even better than the Classics with regard to mastering, but it was rare to find copies without disruptive surface noise.

    Here are my findings, in my opinion:

    Genesis to Revelation - any original 1970s UK Decca will do. Boxed label is fine. I fact this is one of the easiest ones, because Decca vinyl quality was superb. For the budget conscious there is the excellent "Rock Roots" UK Decca reissue from 1976, complete with good sound and extra tracks.

    Trespass and Nursery Cryme - really tough, have not yet found a perfect copy. Absolute best mastering is on the UK Pink Scroll originals. Seems like any mid grade and up copy will be over $100 these days. The vinyl is thick, the sound is as vibrant as I've heard, but the original EMI pressed vinyl is inherently noisy. Quality control doesn't seem to have been that high. Several copies I've had displayed inner groove distortion, probably from being played with a worn or inappropriate stylus. Remember, these records are over 40 years old, who knows their history? Also, the later UK pressings with Large and Small "Mad Hatter" labels sometimes used the same mastering as the Pink Scrolls. Look for those, because they can be found for usually a lot less money.

    Foxtrot - A-1U B-1U Porky is the best I've found. George Peckham had a gift of optimizing extremely long rock albums on vinyl discs. He obviously used compression and made it hot, but to my ears, the results are pleasing.


    Selling England By The Pound - Again the UK first press A-1U B-2U Porky Ray Pecko is going to be hard to beat. Really hard to find without surface noise, I had to eventually lower my expectations on this album.

    The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway - the UK first with -2U on all sides is my favorite, except for its fatal flaw, which is a pronounced hum at around 50-60hz which sounds throughout the entire album. So, there's also a German pressing (1Y 2Y 1Y 2Y) which is outstanding, and the only one of the early albums where the "country of origin rule" is seriously challenged.


    Yes, these are expensive records.

    If those are too expensive, I suggest looking at later UK pressings, like the blue label Charisma reissue ones that came out in the early 1980s. They don't have the vibrancy and presence of the best originals, but they are likely to have been cut from the original master tapes, which gives them a sonic edge. From the deadwax markings, it appears at least some of those were cut at Trident. The vinyl quality is pretty good, frequently better than the originals with regard to surface noise. A lot of those blue label Charisma pressings were imported to the states in the 1980s, can be found in US shops for reasonable prices still. I like them better than most pressings from other countries, which were most certainly cut from dubs, and the degradation in sound is obvious. Anything other than UK pressings for Gabriel era Genesis is unlikely to be "the best", German Lamb possibly excepted.

    This blue label:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  18. G E

    G E Senior Member

    This is a good summary of vinyl options for Gabriel era Genesis.
     
    TLMusic likes this.
  19. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    NOA you tell me. LOL! This is brilliant, thank you very much for posting! My fingers are crossed for the US Pink Scroll ( 2nd pressing I think)
     
  20. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    Thanks.

    That US Pink Scroll would have been cut from a tape dub. If Bell Sound did it, then they apparently were in the habit of copying the tapes were sent and then cutting from those higher generation copies. That is what credible sources on the internet report. This typically results in an audio quality with more grain and compression, but it nonetheless might sound all right.

    You'll have to let us know how you like it.

    As I mentioned for Nursery Cryme, you could consider hunting for a mid 1970s UK small mad hatter pressing, one of the ones made from the 1st press lacquers (A-1U B-2U hiltop in the deadwax). They sound very close to a UK Pink Scroll but are less collectible, you might get a deal.

    Also, those UK blue label Charisma 1980s reissues are not bad. I don't see any from US sellers up on discogs currently, but have recently noticed them in person at various used records stores around the country, and at record shows. They are not that rare and should not be more than $15-30 for a clean copy.
    Genesis - Nursery Cryme
     
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  21. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

     
  22. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Thank you so much- got burned on a funky noisy Foxtrot German (later, 80's maybe) and that shipped from Germany. For about 3/4 of a refund. Already learned that 98% of EBay vinyl sellers over grade...had a very bad experience with a copy of FT there previously. Now I am waiting on this one...fingers crossed. Thank you again for your expert advice!
     
  23. Thommo577

    Thommo577 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Here is the latest SEBTP, it is a large mat hatter.. I will try to attach the pics. Please weigh in --- is a UK copy, phonogram. €20 shipped, or €12 or both plus the €8 shipping.

    the copy I own is a second press ,medium ''mad hatter label''- not the large one but not the small also(blue). Its a ''Phonogram'' Ltd copy.
    Can't attach pics...ugh!
     
  24. izgoblin

    izgoblin Forum Resident

    Given what I hear on mine, I guarantee we have different matrix numbers. Thanks for posting yours - I just gotta remember now to pull and post mine.
     
  25. izgoblin

    izgoblin Forum Resident

    I had several posts throughout this thread that told you some of the same stuff!

    Except that I REALLY don't recommend those blue label Charismas. There isn't a single title which those turned out to be even second best of the available options. For Trespass, it's one of the worst. My comment on Nursery Cryme is "One of the least offensive but still not good (seems to have an upper mid boost)".
     

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