Phil is a great musician. However.........I never really liked the tone of his voice as much as Peter. It is a little too high pitched for me at times and takes away some of the power from what could be heavier sounding post Gabriel Genesis songs. However his range and emotion is great and I will always listen to post PG Genesis. But I give the nod to Peter by a couple of notches. Their voices in harmony were perfect for me though and were as good as any other group in rock and roll or prog or folk or whatever.
I Know What I Like is meant as a fun detour from the high drama of all the other long songs. I get that it's a product of its place & time, but I never cared too much for it. The mixolydian harmony makes it a bit directionless, & the tempo feels sluggish - although these qualities do work with the playful lyrical subject matter. It's still one of their signature tunes that served as both minor hit single & live jam vehicle.
I like the song, but see something of a paradox with it - overall, I like what the Collins/Hackett version of the post-Gabriel band did with it on the 1976 and 1977 tours a bit better than the studio incarnation, because of the cool jam, but in that context, the lyrical subject matter - which for me is strongest component of the original studio version - seems just totally out of context. But if you want the version of the song that best fits the lyrics, you don't get the lengthy instrumental section.
When first getting into Genesis, Selling England by the Pound was my favorite album of all time for a long time. Only a few years ago, that title went to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. I still remember hearing the album for the first time, just immersing myself in the music. I had known I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe) from the Turn It On Again compilation, and had initially laughed it off as being silly and pretentious (much as I had done with another progressive rock group, Gentle Giant, a few years earlier) but something caught on over the passing weeks after having received the tour edition of the compilation and getting into the 1970's stuff. Dancing With the Moonlit Knight goes into all sorts of territories, both with a slow, menacing groove and a speedy pace. Beautiful guitar sounds, rollicking drums and overtly dramatic vocals. I have always enjoyed the ending section, a very moody piece and a road I wish they had gone down more often (e.g. also It's Yourself's end section). Definitely one of their ultimate songs. I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe) I knew loosely but already on first listen I could feel it was not going to be one of their most loved songs of theirs for me. It is funny and eccentric and has some superb guitar sounds, but pales in comparison with the rest of the album, I think. Firth of Fifth was for a long time my favorite song, it had a grandiose lyric content, various sections with tranquil flute and extravagant synthesizer and of course the big epic guitar solo... Always enjoyed it. People say it's Steve's song because of his guitar solo. Not too sure about that... But it would probably not be as interesting without it. And I always had a soft spot for More Fool Me. Phil's vocals were still quite young and high paced, but it is a pretty little song that ends the first part of this massive album (53 minutes for a single album!) with ease, and paves the way for the bombast of the second side... ... Which opens with The Battle of Epping Forest. For a long time I thought it was too absurd, though I was always intrigued by its impossible drum pattern and its twiddling synths with Gabriel's vocals getting much further into acting than just pantomime. A very vivid and illustrious piece of music with many facets. These days it still does not get old. You always hear something new. Only recently it dawned on me how beautiful the bass part is. After the Ordeal; I don't know... I liked it for some time as it smooths out the cracks made by the blast of the previous song and making the way for the next one which is also a long one. But it gets a little bit tedious at times, even though the melody is pretty good. I enjoy the acoustic part of it more than the electric. The Cinema Show is a beautiful song and one of their most poignant. Musically it always reminded me of late summer turning into autumn. It has that sort of melancholy feel about it that can only be summed up in nature. The closing synthesizer solo is one of the all-time best within progressive rock. The drum sound on this particular song brings forth the eagerness explained in the lyrics. Of the two parts of the song, the beautiful 12-string opening versus the big finish, it's hard to pick a favorite. The entire song is one of Genesis' very best and one of the best progressive rock songs of all time. The closing tag reprising the title track, ripe with wordplay and dramatic vocalisations still works wonders... The faint whisper of the Mellotron closes of this particular chapter of Genesis for me. I know the same lineup did The Lamb soon after, but that is a different animal (no pun intended) all of its own; On this album, you could never imagine these guys making up songs about Broadway, freaks of nature and Aerosol kids. That would disturb the tranquil of the very exciting silver pot of afternoon tea put to sound that Selling England by the Pound is.
I honestly don't think in this stage if their careers they had so many hardcore fans, neither that this completist collecting compulsion so popular on these pages was actually that diffused back then. Singles were mostly for casual listeners. IMO, chances are very few people bought both the LP and the single. Unless by then Twilight was (still) so popular live that they finally took the chance to get it on physical copy. But again, I doubt many did. First, you deserve to be banned from this thread for mentioning those guys from Liverpool. Second, Banks liked them. As a classical trained pianist, listener to music by the likes of Rachmaninoff & Co, he sort of learned the art of simplicity and of a straight forward communicative melody from their songs (source: the usual Giammetti's books).
Love this track quite a bit. Maybe not as great a closer as Los Endos but it IS such a fun little song and another one where I can complement Mike's bass which I often am unable to say. Also, the horrible Pro Soloist on Tony's part makes it work too. That synth melody is awful but works fine here.
I remember reading a few interviews with Steve in which he said that the riff he came up with was 'Beatles influenced', could that be the Indian flavour of it?
Well they must have had a pretty decent sized hardcore fanbase by that time, since SEBTP hit #3 on the album chart. I would assume that was from early (possibly even first week) sales as I doubt it spent very long in the top 10. Previously Foxtrot peaked at #12 (again probably from first week sales, dropping down the following week), and the previous albums missed the chart completely, so they were definitely building a strong fan base by that time. Non-LP tracks on singles were a way to increase the chances of a single gaining a chart position, since in the UK airplay was 100% irrelevant to a single's chart placement as the singles chart was totally sales based. It was expected that many hardcore fans of a band would buy both the album and the single (if the single had an exclusive track on the B-Side). In the UK at that time singles with both songs taken from an already released album were rare. It was usually either one or both songs that were exclusive to a single, and the ones that had both songs taken from an album that had already been released tended to chart low (and sometimes not chart at all). McCartney (yeah I know - every thread turns into a Beatles thread) pulled a single from his 3 month old Ram album, and it stalled at UK #39 probably since most people already had the album that both songs were taken from. You could argue that maybe the song just wasn't that good, but at the time (1971) Beatles solo singles were regularly making the top 5 (even Ringo) so for Paul it was an unprecedented (and possibly embarrassing) major flop. It was about three years before he risked chart failure again by pulling a single from an already released album. Also in this case, the fact that Twilight Alehouse had spent years in the set list without a record release, had to have helped, especially if that fact were mentioned in the print ads for the single placed in the music weekly papers. Sure I could be wrong, but I'd imagine the "week to week" chart positions would settle the matter as to who was buying the single: A slow, steady climb up the chart = a genuine hit song A quick sales peak followed by a quick drop = hardcore fans buying the single for the B-Side A quick peak followed by a minor drop-off, and then a recovery = early hardcore fan sales earning the single a healthy chart position which increases airplay which increases sales of the single to non-fans of the band.
Firth Of Fifth The title is a pun on the estuary of the River Forth in Scotland, commonly known as the Firth of Forth. Though the song is credited to the entire band, most of the music was composed by keyboardist Tony Banks. He had written the bulk of the song by 1972, presenting it as a candidate for the album Foxtrot (1972), but it was rejected. He redesigned the piece, which the group accepted as a candidate for Selling England by the Pound.[3] Banks worked on the lyrics with the group's Mike Rutherford, which he later dismissed, saying they were "one of the worst sets of lyrics [I have] been involved with."[4] The song starts out with a classical-style grand piano introduction played by Banks.[5] This section is rhythmically complex, with certain bars in the rare time signatures of 13 16 and 15 16, alternating with bars of 2 4.[6] This section changes tempo and segues into the first section of lyrics, accompanied by Phil Collins on drums and a chord progression between the Hammond organ (Banks) and guitar (Steve Hackett). The song then features a flute melody played by Peter Gabriel, followed by a synth-driven instrumental section which restates the opening piano theme. Hackett then plays the flute melody using violin-like guitar tones.[7] Peter Gabriel then sings a brief section of lyrics before Banks concludes the song on piano. From autumn 1973 onwards, the song's piano intro was omitted during live performances.[2] Banks felt he could not do the intro justice on the RMI electric piano he used on stage instead of a proper piano, as the RMI was not touch-sensitive.[citation needed] The song survived the departure of Peter Gabriel in 1975, with Phil Collins taking over to sing lead, but was dropped as a piece overall following Hackett's departure in 1977 but for the 1981 tour wherein it was played as a full length piece.[2] The instrumental section of the song, featuring the guitar solo, was resurrected for the Mama Tour in 1983-84, as well as the We Can't Dance tour in 1992, with touring member Daryl Stuermer playing Hackett's guitar parts.[2] This section of the song featured on the Calling All Stations tour in 1998, with Anthony Drennan playing guitar. It was resurrected for the 2007's Turn It On Again: The Tour, again featuring Collins and Stuermer. The instrumental segues directly into "I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe)" in 1992 and 2007 versions. Hackett has continued to play the song live since leaving Genesis.[2] It appears on his solo album of re-worked Genesis songs, Watcher of the Skies: Genesis Revisited (1996), with lead vocal by John Wetton, as well as on Hackett's live album The Tokyo Tapes (1998). The song was also included as an encore on his Genesis Revisited tour (2013-2014), featured on the live album Genesis Revisited: Live at Hammersmith (2013). The song has had a strong critical response as one of the best examples of progressive rock. Particular highlights of the track include Banks' piano introduction and Hackett's guitar solo.[1] Rock author Edward Macan describes "Firth of Fifth" as "one of the finest nine and half minutes of music that Genesis ever put down".[8]Genesis biographers Dave Bowler and Bryan Dray describe Hackett's solo as "the crowning moment of Hackett's time with the band."[7] Hackett has spoken favourably about his contributions to the song, saying "it'll always be twinned with me, and I still enjoy playing it. It's a great melody for guitar".[9] ------------------------------ This song is worth it's presence, if for no other reason just for the magnificent piano opening and Banks I would assume is very proud and happy to have had this piece come from him. I most definitely reflects his interest in classical music and its forms, and it isn't surprising that he tried his hand at classical composition on solo projects. Sadly finding what a closed community the classical community is. The song punches in at 1:10 with full band, prominent guitar and Gabriel jumping into the vocal. Lyrically we have a strange tale that draws on many factors. We have subtle references to biblical redemption "The sheep remain inside their pen, Until the shepherd leads his flock away", yet the main focus seems to be a figure of great size and power moving through/into a community, and is revealed to be Neptune in this instance. I'm not altogether what the meaning of all this is, but more often than not with a lot of Genesis lyrics I have been content to just enjoy the imagery and wordplay without necessarily digging too deep into the meanings thereof. After the first section of vocals we have a very delicate section of music that contains one of Peter's most recognisable flute sections. It is a very pretty and compelling piece of music. This moves into an equally beautiful piece of piano, and the feel starts to rise and we are hit with another great piece of music that is lead by the synth and accented with great drums from Phil. (I read in many people's thoughts about his album that they thought the drums were a little lackluster or something, but I have never really heard or thought that. After that section we enter a Hackett extravaganza. This is a really nice and tasteful lead break. This lead break leads into the guitar reprising the flute section. The seamless way all this flows together is quite magnificent and this really is one of the bands top musical constructs. The guitar really gets a good run through this and after the first reprise of the flute section on the guitar, Hackett takes off on another lead break and then reprises the flute section again. Then we move into a very moody section that leads us back into the vocals. This track is really a beautiful example of what Genesis did best in the early days. We end we a short fading Piano section and it is the kind of track that will lead one to want to replay it.
Not only is Firth of Fifth my favorite track on SEBTP, it's also my favorite Genesis track of all. It's also my favorite prog track by anyone. For me, this song is plain prog rock heaven. I'm not sure why Tony thinks the lyrics are bad, I think they're great. "The sheep remain inside their pen, though many times they've seen the way to leave". Man, how can you think that's a bad lyric? But it's the beautiful music that really draws me to this song. Peter gets to play a very lovely flute lead that introduces the middle part instrumental passage. Then Tony plays the theme hinted by the intro and Phil and Mike join in with fervor. Hackett's solos are magnificent and gives us, not one, but two wonderful climaxes. His soaring guitar is revolutionary in it's tone and attack. It's fierce but gentle at the same time. And Mike's bass pedals! WOW. Add the underlying acoustic guitars dubbed in and it's breathtaking. For me, this is essential Genesis. Before you know it, almost 10 minutes have passed, and yes, you do want to replay it again and again. It just has that kind of staying power.
Good point and I agree with you, but then again, - aside from exceptions here and there - that's also pretty much one aspect of Genesis overall music and sounds that distinguishes them from Rock bands like say ELP, not to say from quite a few others too. Even on the Gabriel-era their lack of heaviness in their rock is evident, according to my pov.
Firth Of Fifth is a great Capital 'P' Prog epic track, but not even my favorite song on this album. I do think the lyrics are pretty terrible, but forgivable! I confess to getting more enjoyment out of songs that have a less symmetrical arrangement; Genesis were always fond of the "bookends" technique (using musical foreshadowing & repetition of themes, etc.), but I do tend to prefer a more non-linear journey in-between. Hence, it's rare that I sit through all of Firth Of Fifth, but there's no denying it's a monster track! Very Crimsony, as Genesis was well aware of. Mike switching to/from bass pedals & 12-string is always magical for me. This is one of the few Gabriel-era songs where I prefer the late-70s version; the double-drums really have an impact that was missing from the 1973 studio version, IMO.
Firth Of Fifth To me, there's no doubting that it's one of Genesis' greatest tracks, especially for Bank's truly beautiful and elegant piano intro and keyboards throughout the song, as well as Hackett's such a superbly strong and emotional guitar work throughout it too, especially his interlude on the final section, just top-notch!
That point was represented in the letter's pages of the UK music papers back then with Genesis fans writing in complaining about the band releasing IKWIL as a single, accusing them of selling out. Actually I think Charisma rather than the band were instrumental in that decision. Of course, Genesis had released singles since thier debut release in 1968 so I'd hardly say that in releasing IKWIL they were selling out. The problem those fans had it seems was that in doing so they were in danger of becoming more popular and would take the commerical route and produce very predictable music. Genesis obliged by releasing a double concept album that many fans found impenetrable. The band would actually survive without a major hit until 1978 and the Radio 2 "record of the week" finally did what those fans from 1974 feared most. But that's another story. When Genesis were a young undiscovered touring band in late 1969/70 they played a number of gigs alongside Mott the Hoople, Queen and a bit later (1972) Roxy Music. All of those bands released classic singles (All the Young Dudes, Virginia Plain, Killer Queen etc) and willingly performed regularly on TOTP reaping the rewards for coming up with great pop/rock songs and unashamedly promoting them to increase their profile and commercial standing. Genesis hated doing TV and wouldn't even allow a video of IKWIL to be shown on TOTP (although it was shown on OGWT and the segment from Willow Farm was shown on at least one American TV show). A missed opportunity for Genesis? Maybe, but ultimately probably not. At the time I didn't welcome Genesis' approach to promotion (i.e. avoiding TV and so on) as I wanted to see my favourite bands on TV and get more exposure believing this would allow them to invest in their stage show and get better producers to work with them for isntance, but the way things panned out I'm glad they stuck to that approach, which for them was more honest. The situaiton with Gabriel would still have happened (may have happened sooner to be fair) had they had a massive hit earlier in their career, and with more to lose from seeing him depart they may well have run for cover sooner than they did and their best run of albums (Foxtrot to Wind and Wuthering) in a distinguished career may never have happened.
Agree 100%. To me it is their best record although there is a lot of great stuff on the albums that followed. "More Fool Me", which is a song I like by the way, doesn't belong in the album. It would have made a great B side for "I Know What I Like".
I also consider "Selling England..." as their best record and often wished they had done more albums in this style. However, my impression is that the band's energy and creativity derived from moving forward and, generally, their worst albums come from those periods in which they stay in their comfort zone rather than trying something different.
Never liked "Twilight Alehouse". I think "More Fool Me" would have worked better as a non album B-side, instead of "Twilight..."
I certainly agree with this. I think for better or worse Genesis were better when moving forward, often leaving fans behind. I guess it's easy for me listening back to appreciate stuff more, I imagine at the time (for example) Lamb would have been a shock to the system for the fans. I can imagine And Then There Were Three being a shock for the fans also, but looking back from my perspective they are amongst their best albums (and I know that's not a popular opinion, but ..... oh well) Another thing to remember is, if you load every song up with key and time signature changes, it eventually develops a certain sameness which in itself gets a little dull
I Know What I Like I never really loved the studio version. Because Seconds Out was my jumping off point into Gabriel era songs I was more familiar with the live version from the four man era. I absolutely love the extended version. While others may not like Phil clowning around and doing the tambourine dance I thought it was a good way to have fun with what is, to some extent, a lighter track. (Though when listening to it rather than watching that part doesn't add much.). I really like the version on the '76 live movie. Years later I got some bootlegs where you could really hear most of the band singing along with Peter - it made it a lot more fun. It's a different feel but I enjoy it live with Peter just as much as with Phil. I'm still only lukewarm on the studio version.
I'm not quite sure where one would get the idea that the band were purposely avoiding or were antagonistic towards publicity, or getting more exposure. I think one quote from the band later on went something like, "We wanted to make hit singles, we just weren't any good at it", or something to that effect. There is a TV segment that they recorded (Belgium?) back in 1972, there's the Shepperton recording, and I remember them showing up on a high profile U.S. broadcast (Midnight Special?). As I recall, it wasn't that the band were avoiding these kinds of avenues of publicity, it was more and issue of Gabriel himself wanting to have control of how they were put across publicly from a visual standpoint. He has admitted to a certain degree of obsession when it came to the visual aspect of the band, and it was something that he really couldn't control at that stage. They were a young, upcoming group, without a truly significant following, and questionable management. They just weren't in a position to dictate how they were going to be filmed or televised. So that aspect of the band was essentially minimized out of simple dissatisfaction to quality, largely at Gabriel's insistence. Also, I think it should be pointed out that filming rock acts at that time was relatively primitive and mainly reserved for those who were more popular. Genesis were nowhere near the level of commercial success to invest the time and money to be filmed on a more professional level, with a large amount of control from the band.
I realise that a Beatles reference is compulsory in every thread, but I think it's time this Beatles comparison was called out. It's "influenced by the Beatles" only in the sense that hundreds of songs in the late 1960s and early 1970s were influenced by the Beatles, and the Beatles themselves took their influence in turn from what they heard. I'm sure if I tried I could hear some similarity to certain songs of the Beach Boys and the Mamas and the Papas, and maybe even one or two songs of the Rolling Stones. That does not mean anything beyond the fact that there were similar musical ideas going around. And to give a serious response to Ross River Bear's question: no, I don't hear the Beatles here, not particularly.
Tony had to work hard on the others to get the go-ahead to use the piano intro. The band had seen the criticism that used to be levelled at the likes of ELP and Yes for perceived instrumental self-indulgence and tried to distance themselves from that, always maintaining that any solos were kept to a strict minimum and always there to serve the songs, rather than just an empty display of technical proficiency. I felt they were being a bit over-sensitive in this case though, there's nothing remotely self-indulgent here.
