Getz/Gilberto Analogue Productions Hybrid SACD

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve O, Sep 21, 2011.

  1. Khojem

    Khojem Forum Resident

    Location:
    Irvine, CA, USA
    Interesting!

    Question for you. What are the numbers/symbols around the the CD hub?
     
  2. montejay

    montejay Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario Canada
    Hub on the G/G has catalog number and #901209E and mfg by cinram
     
  3. montejay

    montejay Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario Canada
    I thought Getz Gilberto was the master that suffered tape damage from track 5 onwards. I may be confused
    The 80's Verve G/G doesn't seem to suffer from any drop out or damage on track 5 that I've noticed.
     
  4. Khojem

    Khojem Forum Resident

    Location:
    Irvine, CA, USA
    Thanks!:edthumbs:
     
  5. KeithH

    KeithH Success With Honor...then and now

    Location:
    Beaver Stadium
    Klar. Viel Dank.
     
  6. rpd

    rpd Senior Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    OK, I just listened to the new AP on headphones, it's a keeper. I was surprised how the tape issues were not a big deal IMHO. A very enjoyable Sunday morning listen
     
  7. sjaca

    sjaca Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto ON, Canada
    Compared (without headphones) the AP SACD with a Verve 80's cd (Canadian 810 048-2), FIM/LIM K2HD Gold UDC, Verve SACD (2002) & the MFSL. For comparability purposes, channels were switched on the K2 Gold, Verve SACD & MFSL.

    The Verve Cdn 80's cd is the best overall in most areas. Vocals are crisp & clear. Midrange is clear & well defined & the top end is likewise with nice extension. There is air around the instruments (excepting bass) & vocals. Bass on this disc, however, is not as tight or deep as that on the other discs.

    The next best choice is the Verve SACD, which exhibits tight, deep bass. Top end, midrange & vocal clarity are just a tad below the Verve cd, without quite as much air & extension.

    Each of the others are a pleasurable listen & have their strengths. The K2 Gold cd is solid in all areas, just not the best sounding in any one area. The MFSL is also good in all areas with the deepest bass of all & a smooth, rich vocal delivery. The AP SACD sounds nice with tight, well defined bass & smooth, warm vocals.

    Relatively speaking, the most audible weaknesses in this group of discs are the bass on the Verve cd & the top end on the AP SACD. These discs otherwise all sound very nice overall & great in some places.

    As always, pls rememeber, all of the above is IMHO, derived from my ears, system, room...
     
    speedracer likes this.
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I believe the Verve SACD is a remix.


    I've played my old CD-R of Getz/Gilberto over the weekend. I have the album on there twice, first from a tubed Ampex 350-2 transfer through a Wadia A/D converter and then through an Ampex ATR-100 via an Apogee converter. Both dated 1995.

    At any rate, the first three songs on side one have to be the most satisfying triptych on record, just perfection.

    Playing both the tube and solid state versions on my big system, I liked the tube version for the lifelike vocals but the hi-hat lost a bit of top end snap and the plucked bass slowed down too much for me. The solid state version fixed all that but a bit of the naturalness of the vocals was lost.

    The eerie thing about the tube version is that when Stan Getz takes a breath between phrases, it is so spooky real that it gives us shivers here, since the man is in his grave. It's pretty amazing listening to him play. Truly resurrecting the dead..

    If someone feels like sending me a copy of the "best" version in their eyes, or a sampling of more than one version (first three songs only needed) I'll let you know which I feel comes closest to the best version I have here...

    Just if you feel like it. I have no commercially released digital versions here..
     
  9. Claude

    Claude Senior Member

    Location:
    Luxembourg
    I like the Verve SACD too, but I think the top end has been boosted a bit (and very tastefully), because it sounds too prominent compared to other recordings of this era, which usually sound more rolled off.

    So it could well be that the AP SACD (which I haven't heard) is a flatter transfer.
     
  10. sjaca

    sjaca Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto ON, Canada


    Sorry, delete post
     
  11. rpd

    rpd Senior Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    I have an 80's made in West Germany version on the way to me. Looking forward to hearing it...
     
  12. Gary Freed

    Gary Freed Forum Resident

    Not a Japanese pressing fanboy at all but a huge fan of this recording which sounds great in every release that I've heard.

    But a real standout for best digital versions of Getz Gilberto in my opinion is the Japanese POCJ 9202 released in 1995 and reissued 2000.

    It is excellent.


    Also Dennis Drake did some Compact Jazz compilations for Verve back in the 80s' that incorporate most of the songs on this album. The mastering job he did on that series is worth checking out just for a comparison. These comps can picked up used for a few dollars. Most folks would be pleasantly surprised
    at how good the Getz Gilberto tracks sound on these compilations.
     
  13. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    The Verve SACD is a modern remix. The AP SACD isn't, it's the old mix.
     
  14. monkboughtlunch

    monkboughtlunch Senior Member

    Location:
    Texas
    Does the Verve SACD remix have any oxide loss or dropout artifacts?
     
  15. zdlo

    zdlo New Member

    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    OK... After reading 17 pages of the "Getz/Gilberto - Definitive edition on CD?" thread, and many others of two other threads about the CD editions of Getz/Gilberto album, I think I can submit my first post, and clearly say that there is still one point that hasn't been cleared.

    (This post probably should be on the mentioned thread, but since this one is being used for the same topic, and has the activity going, I'm posting it here.)

    As Sergio beautifully listed after much discussion, we can say that the original stereo tape made by Hadani to be used as the vinyl master had Astrud's voice on the right.

    And it is said that Hadani reversed it; her voice was actually on the left, before the master was prepared.

    Before the master, there was the 3-track master tape.

    3-track master tape, as Steve explained, has, well, three tracks; one with Astrid and the piano, one with the bass and the drums, and the other with the guitar and his voice.

    So... What did Hadani actually reversed to make the vinyl master tape? The 3-track master tape?

    The 3-track master tape for this recording, I'm guessing, is just like any other multi-track tape that is used to have separate tracks to be able to mix later for a stereo master.

    So, a 3-track master tape, isn't something ready to be played in stereo. It has to be mixed down to 2 channels. And that is what Hadani did.

    So, the very first stereo mix was done by Hadani, and it had Astrud's voice on the right. Right? What did he reversed then?

    Did the 3-track tape has a label on it, saying "put the track with her voice on the left channel", but Hadani missed or disregarded this? I mean, where exactly does this information come from, about Astrud's voice being originally on the left?

    --- I really wish to get an answer to this question. Until then, my next topic: the different editions... ---

    I've listened 6 different versions; 1994 Verve, 1994 MFSL, 1997 Remastered Verve, another 1997, 2002 Verve SACD, K2HD 2009, with only the 1994 Verve having Astrud's voice on left channel (soft). All the others have it on the right (hard).

    SACD has the cleanest sound. It doesn't have the weird thing happening at the start of 1994 Verve, where his voice shifts to the center, and the hiss is gone afterwards. No. SACD starts with his voice centered, and there is no hiss.

    MFSL and K2HD has a hiss so high that you can't ignore. The hiss itself doesn't sound natural. K2HD has too much bass also.

    Even if the SACD version is the more balanced and clean one, I find myself wanting to listen the odd 1994 Verve version with Astrud's voice on the left, just because the channel polarisation (left-right) sounds better. Maybe the mix with Astrud's voice on the left was the best choice after all.

    I'm curious about the POCJ edition with her voice on the left, but I'm afraid I may not like it as much, if it has it all the way to the left side; not a little centered.

    I've also read this thread about the Analogue Productions edition. I'm not impressed with the information about it having damaged tape sounds.

    I am very curious about Monte's Canadian Verve though!

    I wonder how it is different than the 1994 edition I mentioned. Does it have that weird thing where the intro vocal shifts to center from the left channel, and the hiss volume goes down at the same time?

    There is also something happening that pops the ear when she says "when" near 1:28-1:30 on some editions. Maybe this is about the different sources that are used. I can imagine it originating from a tape damage that is amplified after each use with getting more damage, but most likely because of using a copy of a source that has this damage, as tape damages tend to pop when you record to another media.

    By the way, I bought another one yesterday, but I couldn't play it on my laptop, and I don't have anything else to play it on at the moment. It is one of those old Verve CDs mentioned here many times, but just to be sure, what is this really? It has numbers 810 048-2 02! and it says "Made in USA". It also has another number: D102348.
     
  16. Gary Freed

    Gary Freed Forum Resident

    Zdlo,

    The original West German and U.S. pressings on Verve have catalog number 810 048-2.

    Those two also share the "proper" stereo orientation.
     
  17. Parkertown

    Parkertown Tawny Port

    And the number starting with D means this is a BMG Music Service edition.

    But it's the same mastering as the original U.S.
     
  18. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    If only it were that simple - the earliest pressings are apparently unfutzed with but I have one that despite being a mid 80s pressing (aluminium to the middle / no ridge) has the futzed stereo panning (Astrud in the middle for "Corcovado" etc).


    :)
     
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    No, wait, my head!

    The album was recorded in 1963 at A&R in NYC on a three channel machine and a mono machine, simultaneously.

    The left channel had piano, A's vocal, the center had Sax, Gilberto's vocal, guitar, usually slightly left and the right channel had percussion and bass but sometimes the bass was centered.

    Late 1963, The three channel tape was used to do a reduction mix to two channels (basically splitting the center channel of the three track tape to both channels of the two track tape.)

    The mix was made by A&R right after recording and editing the three track reel. Phil Ramone made the reduction mix and the three track tape was FILED AWAY, not touched again until 1997. Got that?

    The two track mix was dubbed to an A&R safety (SOP) and then the two track mix was used to cut the first lacquers at A&R. At that same time a dub copy was made (called an EQ Copy or EQ Cutting Master or whatever you want to call it). This tape either had the channels reversed on it by accident or on purpose, don't know, don't care.

    One of these two track tapes was sent to the West Coast for cutting replacement lacquers there. Another was retained on the East Coast for cutting replacement lacquers there.

    One of these two track tapes made every version of the album known to man up until the 1997 remix.

    Do we have that clear?

    Good!

    Questions about this?

    Don't ask me about various versions on CD, couldn't tell you. Don't ask me about various versions on stereo LP, couldn't tell you.

    All I know is that when the single hit big, this album started selling in big numbers on LP and many (as many as 10) replacement lacquers were cut from the various copies and original two track tapes in 1964 and '65. Van Gelder cut some, Ami in California cut some, this album was a smash hit and was recut a lot.

    When the CD era started, the original two track A&R mix was used in some form or another to generate CD masters. WHETHER IT SAID ON THE BOX TO REVERSE CHANNELS OR THEY WERE DONE WHILE MAKING THE EQ DUB in DEC. OF 1963, I DO NOT KNOW!

    I can't proof this so if I don't make sense, let me know!

    Over to you!:wave:
     
  20. Gary Freed

    Gary Freed Forum Resident

    No wonder this album has so many remasters and releases.

    Don't know how accurate this information is, but I found this on WIKI.

    "It won the 1965 Grammy Awards for Best Album of the Year, Best Jazz Instrumental Album - Individual or Group and Best Engineered Album, Non-Classical. "The Girl from Ipanema" also won the award for Record of the Year in 1965. This was the first time a jazz album received Album of the Year. It was the last jazz album to win the award until Herbie Hancock's River: The Joni Letters 43 years later, in 2008."
     
  21. zdlo

    zdlo New Member

    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Thanks Steve!

    So, at which point Hadani comes into picture in this storyline?
     
  22. montejay

    montejay Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario Canada
    The canadian cd has the same cat. #, but Astrud is hard left.
     
  23. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Sounds to me like this Canadian disk is made from the actual two track mix..
     
  24. AlecA

    AlecA Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Hampshire, USA
    Was the mono version ever released on CD? I wonder what shape that tape is in.
     
  25. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    No and no idea.
     

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