Godfather question: Did anybody back home know that Michael got married while he was in Italy?*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Vinny123, Jun 7, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

    Location:
    Michigan
    He's great in Donnie Brasco. He's like a little kid in an adult body. You almost feel bad for Lefty at the end.
     
    enro99, Jack Lord, rd1 and 2 others like this.
  2. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    No way I could use that kind of parameter. There are lots of movies I don't remember. Matter of fact, I forgot the plot of the Godfather II for a great many years. I have heard this said a lot and never got this. Often I will re-watch a movie because someone says I missed something. I give it another chance and go wtf was I smokin' the first time I saw that?

    Some movie demand to be re-watched. Glengarry Glen Ross has so many layers, you are not going to get it on just one watch. Rarely do you see so many great performances squeezed into one movie.

    To say you "enjoy" a movie like Glengarry is selling it short. The actors are all going through miserable situations (well except for Baldwin, who is classic in this) so there is very little to "enjoy" about the film. But once you see the mental break down of Lemon, I have come back to this movie again and again. Why, because he does it so good and manipulates and takes you to that place. Al Pacino is a scream as well (playing off the customers mental weakness) and that is why both actors are firmly in the lead. Though Arkin is also great and might I add is also excellent with Pacino in Wise Guys.

    As for the rest, I ask you one thing. Give Danny Collins a watch. Heck it is a great movie for father's day. Watch it right up to the last minute giving it the most open and honest chance. Treat it as if you never saw another Al Pacino movie.

    And yes, I may be a bigger fan, but then again it comes from knowing his work inside and out. Author Author was not an easy first watch. After seeing it years later I think...what the hell was my problem? This movie was brilliant. Critics don't like it...even a lot of fans...but not for me. It actually is one of the more meaningful movies of his career (because not only is it comedy, but it has a personal quality) and again, this is coming from a fan that knows all his work.

    BUT back to Danny Collins, if this isn't Al Pacino in the best comeback form, I don't know what is. It is honesty, from the heart, and most importantly something that most of fathers and sons can identify with. My wife loved this movie to death, and I have seen it gain traction with fans that don't normally like him or write him off as you have. A shame really, because the man never stopped doing good work.

    Frankie and Johnny for example is another one of those heartfelt movie with flawed characters, yet if you fall asleep before ending, you have missed the point entirely.
     
    enro99 and Nice Marmot like this.
  3. agentalbert

    agentalbert Senior Member

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    This recent thread has had me wanting to watch Godfather again, and I finally had the chance tonight. One question about Apollonia - when the bodyguards are describing her to her father (before they know the girl is his daughter), they talk about her "looking more Greek than Italian" and Apollonia is of course a Greek name. It's used in Italy as well and there is a port Apollonia in Sicily, according to Wikipedia. But I'm wondering if the mention of her looks and the name is supposed to infer that she is in fact half Greek with a Greek mother?

    Also, Vito swears in front of the other family heads that he will not be the one to break the peace they have made. But he also learns at that meeting that it was Barzini who tried to have him killed. Did he intend to keep his word, and was his stepping down and making Michael his way of keeping it (in his mind) while he likely knew of the plan to kill Barzini, if not all of the family heads. At the meeting where Michael tells Tom Hagan "you're out, Tom", the Don tells Tom that there are things coming he doesn't want him to be a part of. And Michael is reassuring Clemenza and Tessio that things are in the works that will address their problems with Barzini. Not sure if the plan at that point was just to Kill Barzini or Barzini and Tattaglia, or all of them. Maybe if you're going to kill any of them, you'd have to kill all of them to avoid having them gang up in retaliation for breaking the peace.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  4. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    That's what I always thought, she was half Sicilian, half Greek. Such a cutie...
    [​IMG]

    I suspect Michael and Vito cooked up the plot to off the heads of the Five Families together. Not just one or two, all of them. And in spite of not wanting to involve Tom Hagen, he ended up involved anyway ("Can't do it, Sal.")
     
  5. agentalbert

    agentalbert Senior Member

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    True.

    After posting I watched the deleted scenes that are on the special features disc of the blu-ray set, and there is a scene of Michael and Vito talking where Vito points out he has sworn not to break the peace, but Michael says he has never given his word on this. And Vito seems to accept it. Sometime during the 1 year or more between Michael returning to American and him going to see Kay, he assumed control of the family and Vito went into semi-retirement. From the way Michael speaks in this deleted scene, its clear he has not acce[ted the assassinations of Santino and Apollonia. I wonder if his wife had not been assassinated, would have have returned willing to have peace (for a time, anyway) and if it was just the death of Apollonia that is the tipping point. I think that may be the case.
     
  6. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    I would agree. I don't think Michael -or any of the Corleones- were exactly surprised that Sonny got whacked (let's face it, Sonny's general behaviour sorta made that kinda thing inevitable:laugh:) but Appollonia was innocent and the fact that she was killed by somebody Michael thought he could trust only made it worse. Michael Corleone came back to the States after his exile ready to kick ass and take names. Which he did. Vito was a smart guy; I'm sure he knew deep down that his son wanted revenge and vengeance. And why not? Vito got his personal vengeance for his mother, father and older brother when he gutted old Don Ciccio when he took the family back to Sicily in his early days.
    [​IMG]
    ("Oh, Il morte!!"...I love that scene!:D)
     
    Luke The Drifter likes this.
  7. slinkyfarm

    slinkyfarm Forum Resident

    Location:
    Winchester, KY
    I read The Sicilian for the first time last week and I enjoyed it. I didn't know Guiliani/Giuliani and his crew were real people until after I finished the book, but Turi's a great character at least through Puzo's eyes. I haven't seen the film. I happened to pick up a copy of Omerta right after that, which was much less interesting (I didn't think the title applied to the story very much), and now I'm really struggling to maintain my interest through the first half of The Family. The Borgias could make for an interesting story, but this isn't it.
     
  8. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    If memory serves Puzo died before finishing The Family and his literary executor finished the novel on his behalf. Not a bad novel, IMO, but I still reckon of all of Puzo's books Fools Die is the only one that approaches The Godfather's greatness.
     
  9. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

    Location:
    Michigan
    Also in the book, Vito makes it a point to talk about how important it is to get Michael back safely; this would support the theory that he knew Michael would get revenge for the family.

    It's also interesting to note, in the book they mention that Sonny had actually come up with the plan himself, of killing the heads of the Five Families. They all went into hiding though, so he couldn't carry the plan out. Even though Sonny was looked at as a loose cannon, he actually had the grand plan worked out.
     
    mikeyt likes this.
  10. Jack Lord

    Jack Lord Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Oh he genuinely loved Apollonia. But as she is dead and he is back in America, Kay becomes the obvious Plan B. I would guess most of still retain feelings for our serious exs. And he and Kay had never actually broken up. Apollonia was part of his dream life of hiding in and exploring Sicily. He is investigating his heritage and going native. Kay represents the resumption of normalcy in America. A normalcy that is now corrupted.

    As for Apollonia being part Greek, Sicilians have a lot of Greek and Arab mixed in.
     
    ohnothimagen likes this.
  11. Chazro

    Chazro Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Palm Bch, Fl.
    I think Michael envisioned that Appolonia, when they got back to America, was going to be the old school Italian matriarch of the family, following in his Mama's footsteps. When you think about it, Mama Corleone would've been the ONLY person from the 'old country' Appolonia would know. Taking it one step further, imagine had she lived, the SONS she would have borne Michael. The Corleone's would probably STILL be running things!;)
     
    ohnothimagen and Vinny123 like this.
  12. Phil147

    Phil147 Forum Resident

    Location:
    York UK
    When Vito meets with the families he makes it very clear that his priority was to bring Michael home safely and in return not only would he support the move into drugs but would also guarantee peace as long as nothing happened to Michael.

    'But -- that aside -- let me say that I swear -- on the souls of my grandchildren -- that I will

    not be the one
    to break the peace that we have made here today...'

    So of course he knew Michael would take over and that all the threats to the Corleone family would be dealt with, just that he would not be the man to do it.
     
    Grunge Master and ohnothimagen like this.
  13. Phil147

    Phil147 Forum Resident

    Location:
    York UK
    ***EXTRA SCENE FROM THE EPIC: Michael, who has returned from Sicily, is walking

    and talking with the Don in the Don's garden. -day


    VITO CORLEONE

    Look at this -- tomatoes, peppers -- all of this -- perfecto...


    MICHAEL

    Pop, what about Sonny?

    (then)

    What about Sicily?


    VITO CORLEONE

    I swore that I would never break the peace


    MICHAEL

    But won't they take that as a sign of weakness?


    VITO CORLEONE

    It is a sign of weakness...


    MICHAEL

    Well -- you gave your word that you wouldn't break the peace, I didn't give mine. You don't

    have to have any part -- I take all responsibility.


    VITO CORLEONE

    Well, we have a lot of time to talk about it now
     
    ohnothimagen likes this.
  14. hbbfam

    hbbfam Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chandler,AZ
    I've read them all. I consider The Godfather a true masterpiece, and I have read it at least a dozen times. I found the remainder of Puzo's literary works to all be, at best, mediocre. I have seldom found authors who have had such a drop off from one book to all their others.
     
    ohnothimagen likes this.
  15. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Yeah not following this at all. Pacino is far from a glaring example of any over acting whatsoever. Danny Collins and You Don't Know Jack were played by a MASTER.

    Jack Nicholson in my view did not become a caricature either. About Schmidt was one of his finest moments. It truly was a masterpiece. I always loved Hoffa too.

    I get so sick of people ripping on someone because they age, and yet many that talk seem to be truly unaware of their later work. Not saying you are this, but I don't know anyone with a straight face can say that Al has been anything like what has been described. He still stretches his abilities and puts out darn fine movies.

    Getting back, the thing I always had a problem with in the Godfather is that as good as Al is in the second, so much was established in the first movie that I actually feel the Godfather part II is actually redundant.

    Don't get me wrong, love the movie, but like so many people say about the Road Warrior...Empire.....blah blah.... in almost every case I do not see the second part/sequel surpassing the original masterpiece.

    I love the book...but the vaginal surgery bit was a little out there.
     
    enro99 likes this.
  16. unclefred

    unclefred Coastie with the Moastie

    Location:
    Oregon Coast
    Cosmetic vaginal surgery is big and out in the open these days. Probably not back then.

    I'm totally with you on Pacino and Nicholson. I would also mention The Pledge, 2011. Nicholson's performance was gripping. But certainly they are also capable of mugging etc. But that's often with the Directors' intent.
     
    genesim likes this.
  17. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    What one makes of Vito predicting that a traitor will approach to set up a meeting with Barzini that will end in assassination I think is the key to the whole keeping his word thing.

    One way to look at it is that if he's right that such approach would be (and end up being) a mere prelude to the assassination, then making that approach is Barzini and his allies breaking the peace. Vito combines honor with a willingness to take necessary measures, and so this explanation appeals to me as fitting with his character.

    Another way to look at it is that he didn't really mean to not be the one to break the peace. On that score I think the way to interpret the meeting is that it was not AFTER the meeting, or even during the meeting but after Vito said he would not break the peace, that he had concluded "it was Barzini all along." Vito knew as he said that Tattaglia was a pimp, before they got to the meeting. What convinced him it was Barzini was the way Barzini acted through the meeting, not merely at the end of it. Still, even with this less charitable understanding, Vito was not going to have the Corleone family take the aggressor role until after they were approached by a traitor to meet with Barzini. But... I think there's enough here and there to suggest that Vito did not intend to break the peace, at least until some steps were taken by Barzini that indicated he was going to attack the Corleones.

    Not to digress here, but OF COURSE the fact that latter Tessio approached Michael and was part of the plan to have Michael assassinated showed the audience that Vito was right to predict all that. That is part of the narrative. But how he would really know that? In anything like real life? Sure his principle that Michael later relayed of trying to think like the people around you might be thinking, knowing they have their own self interest, might lead him to think someone would be bought out by Barzini and become a traitor. But that doesn't mean that would be the only possible way Barzini might attack the Corleones. Or when. It's a great plot device that Vito predicted all that, and I will say plausible up to a point. But it could have gone differently. In real life, anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
    Pete Puma and ohnothimagen like this.
  18. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    I understand the point here. The problem is one of timing.

    As of the time of the meeting, Vito did not know that Michael would be able to get back, certainly not any time soon. He mentioned having to take a lot of measures to get him back, meaning legal measures. Michael after all was still the prime suspect in murdering a police captain. It wasn't only his killing Solozzo that was an issue, meaning how that was an attack on Tattaglia's family. Nor did Vito know that Michael would take over, would want to take over. He might think it likely, but he didn't know that.

    But even if he thought getting Michael back was likely and that Michael would take over, he did not know how long that would take, and whether the other families would take any aggressive action against the Corleones in the meantime.

    Vito also didn't know how long or short the rest of his life would be at that point. He didn't even know that when he told Michael to look out for the traitor. It's easy to say it was no longer a matter of his personal honor after he died. But if was still alive, would it not have mattered that he was no longer technically the Don? It was still the Corleone family.

    No, I think it best to see this as a case where Vito, as would most people, would see the efforts being laid to set up the assassination meeting as breaking the peace.

    (What Barzini might have done if Michael was the putative Don and Vito was still alive is another question, but the film implies it was a short period between Vito's conversation with Michael and his death. So it was not something the Barzini character would have had much time to consider.)
     
  19. Chazro

    Chazro Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Palm Bch, Fl.
    Vito knew Michael would be the instrument of his revenge before Michael did!
     
  20. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Hence him saying he never wanted that life for Michael.

    The whole illegit to get legit angle was pretty flawed. The seeds of evil laid his family down the bitter path. All dynasty end in one way or another once the crows start circling.
     
  21. Chazro

    Chazro Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Palm Bch, Fl.
    Michael's revenge on the families is actually based on actual Mafia history/legend. If yr interested check out Lucky Luciano/Night Of The Sicilian Vespers! Whether the tale of a mass execution of Mafia kingpins is true or not, the legend existed long before Puzo ever wrote the Godfather. Puzo used the juiciest bits and pieces of Mafia history and folklore and created a real gumbo!
     
  22. agentalbert

    agentalbert Senior Member

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    What's interesting to think about is if Vito had remained Don (say his health improved and he seemed strong again), would Barzini have plotted with Tessio to try and kill the head of the Corleone family? They very well might have decided Michael would not consider himself bound by the peace Vito made. Would the peace have lasted as long as Vito stayed in control of the family?

    Were the other three families (Tataglia, Cuneo, Strachi?) in on the plot between Barzini and Tessio to kill Michael, or was that all Barzini?
     
  23. Chris from Chicago

    Chris from Chicago Experience is simply the name we give our mistakes

    You're free to admire who you want. You see po-tay-to, I see po-tah-to. I now see a former great actor encroaching on the Jim Carrey and Nicolas Cage overacting school. Let's pray he doesn't want to get his grad school certificate at William Shatner university. Hoo-ah
     
  24. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Well there are opinions and there are informed opinions. So far you haven't really given anything to validate your outlook. Me guesses that you have written Pacino off based on so called group think vs actual experience. If I am wrong and you have seen more than a greatest hits then I am all ears on what you think is actually without merit in the movies I have named. If one hasn't seen for example: You Don't Know Jack, Paterno, Danny Collins, Manglehorn, Angels in America, Phil Spector, Glengary, Salome, Chinese Cofee, The Insider, Looking for Richard, Donnie Brasco...etc...then I gotta say the opinion amounts to ingorance at the least....borderline gibberish at the worst.

    Though to call him Jim Carrey is pretty insulting....matter of fact it is just plain old comical.

    What is next Harvey Keitel is Pauly Shore.:blah:

    Perhaps Meryl Streep is Paula Poundstone.:crazy:

    I am not putting down someone for not seeking out Al Pacino or even saying that he is not their taste.....kinda like me and crochet. Never would do it, and don't see a point....but to put down the art when I know very little about it??? That would be pompous on my part don't you think?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  25. Phil147

    Phil147 Forum Resident

    Location:
    York UK
    I'm pretty sure there is no way Tessio would have betrayed the Don if he was still alive and in charge. Tessio betrayed the family only when the Don had died and then he fatally underestimated Michael believing he was too weak and the family was going to be swallowed up by the other 5. As he said it was purely business, nothing personal with Michael, he was just doing what he thought best for his own people.
    If the Don had lived longer and staying in control he would have kept his word but I'm sure Barzini and Tataglia would never be able to be 100% sure he wouldn't get his revenge sooner or later. One of them might have lost their nerve and made an attempt on his life or Michael at some point.
    The move to Nevada and the pretense that the Corleone family was weakening was all planned and in process whilst Vito was still alive - so if not partly or all his own idea it was at the very least with his consent.
    My feeling is he knew he wasn't going to live forever and trusted Michael to get not just vengeance but also ensure the family position for the foreseeable future by going through with the plan. So either he would completely step aside, as I think was the intention, and Michael would take full responsibility for the hits or it would happen after he died. His dying actually meant the plan had to be accelerated and Tom being drafted back into the 'business' instead of taking the role in Nevada as was originally intended.
     
    ohnothimagen, genesim and agentalbert like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine