Good Cartridge for noisy vinyl??

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by kman, Jun 20, 2014.

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  1. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Black, actually. Not expecting the MP500 to be better, just different, and particularly, more forgiving.
     
  2. Ben Adams

    Ben Adams Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    I honestly don't know if that's going to be the case. I have both a MP-110 and a MP-500. The MP-110 is the forgiving one. The MP-500 is a fine, fine cart, but definitely shows up surface noise to a much greater degree than the MP-110.
     
  3. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    I'm giving it a whirl now. Been playing with the alignment on the unipivot a bit. I think I found an issue with the VTA that may have been affecting the black for awhile, but so far after a couple tests, the MP-500 certainly lets the noise in, but not nearly to the amount that the Black does. So far, I'm finding that it does a good job of letting the noise drift into the background.

    I guess the best word for the new cart might be "lush" I don't know that I ever really understood that description before. I would certainly never use that to describe the Ortofon. The Black is certainly more resolving. Kinda reminds me of the transition from my Peachtree Decco65 to the Cronus. I don't know that the Rogue is actually as detailed and crisp, but it is certainly more musical in every way. And don't get me wrong, I loved the little Peachtree, and still think it might be the best bargain in audio, especially with the new pricing they're doing.

    Right now I'm running everything through the Phonomena II, but I might hook up my ARC SP16/VS110 and see how it reacts to the phono stage in the SP16 (which I love!).

    Bottom line is, it sure is fun playing with the different setups!!! I'll get my money's worth just experimenting. I may decide to get an MP-110 and put it on the extra wand, and move the MP-500 to my Perspex in the den. I like the BPS EvoIII on it "OK" but I don't think it compares to either of the other two at this point.
     
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  4. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Damn, the early John Denver stuff sounds great on the Nagaoka!!! I guess that would make me a little weird, but once I think the setup is right I reach for Aerie, and Poems, Prayers and Promises. Just exquisite recordings, and if you're looking to hear crystal vocals and acoustic guitar, while sorting out surface noise (both of mine are very old copies), they're pretty hard to beat!!!
     
  5. Ben Adams

    Ben Adams Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    Cool, glad it's handling the surface noise well for you! I do recommend getting a MP-110 as well for those records that the 500 doesn't tame.
     
  6. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    If ultimately, high fidelity is the Holy Grail, how is a less capable transducer the answer?

    Is the surface noise perhaps more present because the upper frequency detail is so much better defined by the more capable MP-500 cart? Employing a less resolving cart doesn't seem to me to be the best solution for reduced surface noise, although it does effectively do both, ameliorate surface noise AND injudiciously trim overall detail and transparency. In my mind this is not just a "different flavor of choice", it is though, most certainly, a lose in music.

    I too have experience with both of these fine carts. But the performance of the 100 is not even close to that of the 300, or 500 IMHO. And again, I would express question to whether the SRA/VTA of the Fine-Line has truly been achieved if surface noise is considered to be this distractive to the enjoyment of the musical playback. As my long term experience with Line-Contact, Shibata, and Fine-Line styli is decidedly to the contrary, EXCEPT when not properly aligned. Moreover, when I worked in a record store it was not uncommon to have the same folks returning "defective" records, time and time again, and bashing the industry for pressing quality, only to find that they had vastly inferior decks/tonearms/carts, that were also not properly set-up in most cases. And upon taking the "defective" record that they returned and playing it on a superior, properly set-up deck, we found generally no, or little issue.

    The one HUGE and very subjective aspect in this whole discussion though that is difficult to quantify without something like needle drops as a comparator to understand the condition and possible trade offs, (especially in the digital era with common expectations of a perfectly black silent background) is the sensitivity of the listener to the level of surface noise experienced. With my ears coming from a long-term analog reference of both vinyl and analogue tape, I might possibly well be somewhat more forgiving to a little bit of record surface noise, or even tape hiss then I would be to a trade off of loss in fidelity (refined timbre, micro dynamics, air, PRAT, and acoustical cues from the environment that the music was performed in).

    To me, I would swear my decks and many of the decks/tonearms/carts (and set-ups) I am around daily, are without this pestilence by and large. Perhaps if one wants to equate all of this to "personal preference", or "flavor" at the end of the day if you wind up with something that is more personally enjoyable, who am I to say otherwise, as audio reproduction is nothing but a series of compromises??? It's just that I have my doubts about what I see here as a heavy-handed trade-off, rather than an articulate solution, and would only wish to see everyone enjoying the highest fidelity (of their choosing) in the end. Just my 2ยข as one listeners compromise may well be just anothers flavor.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2014
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  7. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    See, I tend to see the opposite. I will try a used record at my local store, which has nothing to sample on except extreme POS Ion type players (I won't even give them the credit to be called a turntable) and they sound OK - mainly because there is not enough resolution to discern noise. Then I get home and end up tossing the pour chase as it's terrible on my 2M Black. The After a couple days, I am loving the Mp-500 as while not pristinely quiet, it is worlds quieter than the Ortofon, and while I don't it's quite as resolving, I'm thinking it's certainly more musical to my ears. Only about 10 hours on it so far so we'll see how a little time affects my opinion.

    My consideration of adding an MP-110 would be to play stuff, that is likely better to just dump anyway. I've ditched about 100 platters in the last couple weeks, and it's a little hard to explain to the wife that all her childhood favorites are going away not because they are bad, but because they are too beat up to play. An MP-110 might allow her to spin an old ON-J or Bay City Rollers lp from her childhood. Then again she can alway relive her youth on Beats and save me the space!!! :)

    I may try to get a couple needledrops today.
     
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  8. EasterEverywhere

    EasterEverywhere Forum Resident

    Location:
    Albuquerque
    Clearly you have little experience with very rare or very obscure records.
    I have a NOS Shure V15 MK III I bought recently I love.I bought it,in part, because it handles 78s so well.
     
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  9. rob303

    rob303 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Denver, CO
    +1
    Switching from Grado Gold to an Ortofon 2M Black was awesome, but allowed me to realize how warm and forgiving the Grado is.
     
  10. fluffskul

    fluffskul Would rather be at a concert

    Location:
    albany, ny
    Old beat up vinyl belongs in the garbage... I don't care how "rare" and "obscure" it is. If it sounds like poop its not worth owning.
     
  11. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    I also second the M97 XE. I have another good prospect. Why not try a 0.6 mil comical stylus? The 0.6 mil conical rides deeper in the groove. Almost all worn/scratched records were played on a ceramic cartridge with a 0.7 mil conical. So, most of the wear and scoring of the groove aligns with the 0.7 mil profile.

    When the same worn record is played on quality system, play on any 0.7 mil conical stylus would be the worst choice, resulting in distorted sound and noise. The line contact stylus could be more noisy, since it tracks more of a linear section of the groove, including the damaged upper part of the groove, so ticks from small scratches enhanced. The 0.2 x 0.7 elliptical (or .04 x 0.7 etc) would yield about the result as the 0.7 conical since the same scored section of the groove would be tracked. In the case of the Shure M97-XE, the warmth of the cartridge helps to subdue distortion and noise, which is good, but not the best solution IMO.

    The 0.6 conical tracks deeper in the groove, hopefully below the scored section of the groove, so it is possible to obtain a clean play relatively free of distortion and noise. Since the stylus tracks deeper, it also tracks well below any scratches that impinge on the upper portion of the groove, so scratch induced ticks are greatly diminished, if not completely gone.

    I suggest to try the Nagoka MP-100 at $89.98. It has a 0.6 mil conical that will surprise you! Of course the smaller conical will not track as well as a 0.2 x 0.7 elliptical nor a line contact on your clean records. (it does track surprisingly well) For less than pristine records, the MP-100 is a great choice, and a low risk at the price.

    I also second wet cleaning of worn/ damaged vinyl since the groove will contain debris from wear and dust from careless previous play.. sometimes an invisible hardened crust of "well cared for" records subjected to magic potions in a bottle with cleaning cloth. These cleaning kits caused more crackle and hiss, which no stylus can track cleanly. Many have said the spin clean works wonders, and I believe they are right.
    Steve VK
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
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  12. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Clarification: The Shure M97-XE is able to track difficult passages, much to advantage in tracking a worn groove. The Shure is less likely to mis-track when encountering a scored groove or worn or abraded. I favor the Nagoka MP-100 since the 0.6 conical tracks more of the unworn part of the groove, therefore usually a cleaner play. I once owned a Nagatron MC-8 high output moving coil, 0.6 mil grain oriented natural diamond that tracked worn records like there was no tomorrow. It was sold with a Dual 1218 back in the 90's and can not be replaced since the MC-8 is a rare model.
     
  13. rob303

    rob303 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Well, at some point it can become a collectors item like a baseball card or a stamp. You can't really do anything with it other than store it, but someone will pay you big bucks to have that privilege!
     
  14. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    From an audiophile's perspective, and from my own, simply yes, worn records belong in the garbage. If a first pressing has been toasted on a common record changer with a ceramic cartridge, then the decrease in fidelity negates the quality that went into the pressing.

    But just hold on a minute, it may not always be that simple... because sometimes a clean play can be obtained from a moderately worn groove by employing the right stylus. The stylus size and shape can make all the difference, perhaps larger, or smaller, any way a particular stylus can track the unworn part of the groove.

    To obtain a clean play from an otherwise worn groove is a work in progress, sometimes unsuccessful, and for all the trouble more for archival purposes. Then the record can be stored if it's a valuable rare piece.

    Typically damaged records were played on a common record changer or console from the 50's through 70's, or more recently to the tune of an "ION" or "CROSLEY" record eating machine. Almost all were/are equipped with a low compliance ceramic cartridge with either a 1 mil conical stylus for early mono, or a 0.7 conical for stereo. Because the 0.7 conical was so common, virtually all groove damage occurred from them.

    I have found the 0.6 mil conical works miracles for playing a worn groove (not a worn out groove) If the wear does not extend too deeply in the groove, the 0.6 mil conical will track the unworn part with full fidelity without background noise. There is also the 0.5 mil conical, but hard to find, and perhaps runs the risk of bottoming out on some records.

    The 1 mil stylus is also an option, since perhaps it may track above the damaged portion of the groove. The 1 mil, however, is better suited for old mono records, never a stereo pressing. The 1 mil is just too large to negotiate the higher frequencies above approx 12K without hacking off some vinyl, so, mono pressings more limited in frequency range. The stylus profile also determines what part of the groove it tracks, so not all 0.6 conicals or .02 x .07 ellipticals, etc., are cut and polished the same way. Sometimes it's just mix and match, wherever works!
    Steve VK
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
  15. EasterEverywhere

    EasterEverywhere Forum Resident

    Location:
    Albuquerque
  16. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Yikes! That thing fetched almost $1300.00 bucks! :wtf:
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
  17. Luckydog

    Luckydog Active Member

    Location:
    london, uk
    Certain types of click/pop noise might be instantaneous friction related, and the SRA 'approach angle' affect the extent and way in which it happens. A sort of 'micro-stiction I suppose. Also seems a likely reason for why fine line SRA can be fussy in other aspects, not just as to surface noise. It's not often (ever?) mentioned, AFAIK. Just my 2p worth, and my opinion as ever.
     
  18. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    With the Stanton AL styli no longer being manufactured (my go to noisy record choice), Nagaoka for me is the best choice for old, well loved records which has full response but not exacerbates every bit of record noise. I was lent a Nagaoka MP 110 in a headshell this weekend. I will be also buying myself one very soon. I love it's musicality. It also tracks very well.
     
  19. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    I've had the MP-110 and I would say that the big reason for it to not be "noisy" is that it has rather muffled highs. It's like turning down the treble a few steps compared to a higher end cart and of course noise which has it's energy up there will sound less. Most likely also why the MP-500 might sound more noisy. It's just a better cart. Crap in, crap out :)

    Biggest improvement in terms of lowering the noise to me is to 1) make sure the record is cleaned and stored in a non-static inner sleeve and 2) make sure the platter mat is non static.
     
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  20. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    To each, their own... I understand having something on a vinyl that doesn't play great, but it is impossible to find, or just costs too much to replace with a better slab, and you love the music dearly. And if you need a less than ultimate audiophile cart to plow that furrow, why not? It makes sense that we are music lovers first, and maybe reluctant audiophiles second, at least that is a serviceable explanation of myself and I'm sure I'm not the only one. And again, I have plenty of 50's vinyl that looks and sounds (with an elliptical stylus) like it has been a bit beat. Then I put it on with a Line -Contact (that has SRA dead nuts, spot on) and the vinyl plays like it is much closer to new than like it is beat. "Perfect" no, but close enough that it doesn't get in the way of me simply falling into the music's spell.

    Earlier, my point was, if you don't know or are not sure you have a Line-Contact, Fine-Line, Shabata style styli tweaked in on the SRA/VTA, the stylus/cart may not be the problem at all, it's your set-up, and why trade fidelity away to get rid of surface noise AND wind up loosing fidelity with it?

    Everyone has different ears, different decks etc, and different expectations of performance, and just because a cart is more expensive certainly does NOT mean it is better BUT I often find, when I like a cartridge line, like say Ortofon, as they become more pricey, my ears usually hear why. I tend to like the Nagaoka line also, and as much as the MP-300 is a sweet heart and a bargain, on the right arm a MP-500 is more resolving to my ears. And I have even heard the designer (his name escapes me) of the Nagaoka MP-300 publicly claim it is his favor over the MP-500 for the way it portrays music. Please don't send me out in flames, I acknowledge that there are high value ringers that come along and in many ways are giant killers, there are always exceptions to the rule, but they are often few and far between, because the cart makers have ears too.

    I've just never heard a Grado that impressed me at all, at any price, sorry.

    I wish there was an easy answer, yet there are just so many variables.
     
  21. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Yes! Often a warmer cartridge is selected to play less than pristine records. This is like turning down the treble to reduce noise and distortion, but also diminishes the high frequency spectrum. There are better solutions, such as stylus shape and size to obtain a cleaner play or perfect play from a less than perfect record.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  22. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Yes, I have never found these types of lower quality tips to have any advantage in any area really. My take on the sound of the treble as a whole, you will need a really good polished needle with a rather sharp side radius. For some music, like piano, some classical e.g., one can use a good polished spherical needle with very good result. But this is not working with centered positioned rather closeup singers, there you need something better IME. I cannot listen to tracking sibilances, then I rather listen to a good CD.
     
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  23. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Also remember that record pressing back in the days of old wasn't always as good either. I seriously doubt that there are true mint original Prestige or Riverside jazz extant which you would call audiophile good, for one. Sometimes, the ultra-revealing cartridge must be set aside, and something less revealing must take it's place. If you are a record and music lover, you need your detailed and revealing audiophile cartridge, but you also need something which will play your less than ideal recordings to their best abilities. Some of us even have 5 or 6 cartridges and styli options galore like myself. Sometimes, I need one over the other.
     
  24. gener8tr

    gener8tr Senior Member

    Location:
    Vancouver, WA USA
    I've had GREAT luck with most any and all vintage Shure carts and new, generic styli (cheap on ebay).

    I own a Realistic (Shure) R27, R47, R1000EDT as well as a Shure M91 and they all sound great and withstand surface noise very well.

    I have an Audio Technica AT-120E and previously owned a AT-440mLa and absolutely love(d) them both, but they most certainly pick(ed)-up noise from dirty or worn records (at least on my systems).
     
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  25. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    The Shure M-91 ED, M-95, and V15's were so popular, they're still a standard by which other cartridges can be compared. I still use and like them. The Shures played my classic rock albums from the 70's, and they still sound great.

    Just a clarification of my previous post regarding the 0.6 mil stylus for playing a damaged/ worn groove. The 0.6 mil conical is smaller than a 0.2 x .07 elliptical, or any elliptical that is back cut from a o.7 conical. The smaller radius places the 0.6 conical deeper in the groove, thus hopefully tracks the undamaged part of the groove.
     
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