Got LIVE if you want it

After reading some old threads about "Get your ya-yas out", it occurred to me that dubbing in vocal tracks during post-production to a "LIVE" record is cheating. A scam, slight of hand (ear), cooking the books, Enron, et. al.

I read this was done on Peter Gabriel - "Secret World- Live ". I lost respect for that disk.

Do the artists not have the guts (integrity) to leave in the mistakes, i.e. Sinatra - Summit 1957, Judy at Carnegie?

Any one else feel this way?

FeO2

 

They all do it. Can't speak for Judy, but Sinatra's summit was issued after it was possible to re-do. In the pop (rock) music era of amplified music, often played in arena's where intimate acoustics are not possible - it is hard for a bum vocal or a blast of feedback to allow an otherwise definitive performance to be discarded. Besides - this practice is so prevalent, the majority of live albums you hear are "fixed".

I always cringe more when the "recreated" performance could never even possibly duplicate what was even possible onstage (like the 3 or four overdubbed lead guitars that suddenly appear at the end of Big Brother's/Janis Joplin's "I Need a Man to Love" from Cheap Thrills).

 

Ya. I know it's done, but I don't like the redubbing either.

 

Don't lose respect for these artists. If they didn't care they wouldn't go back to fix bum notes and bad solos.

 

Beatles at Shea

I wanted to add: If and when the Beatles at Shea Stadium ever gets released on DVD/Video, the soundtrack was studio overdubbed in places along with the Hollywood Bowl version of "Twist and Shout". The version of "Act Naturally" is actually the studio version.

Even if the sound is terrible, I would still like to hear the actual sound from that concert, along with "She's a Woman" and "Everybody's Trying to Be My Baby" edited back in.

 

You can see some of this in the VHS Anthology videos and it is amazing to watch. I never knew until recently that they had overdubbed on it. "I'm Down" is the real live version though.

 

I'm not thrilled with "cheating" either, but if you've heard live recordings off straight off the board (I'm sure all of us have) then you start to understand why they "fix" up afterwords. Live can be hard to listen to even for diehard fans.

Dan C

 

The James Taylor LIVE CD from a few years back is supposed to be entirely live. They went on tour and recorded just for the purpose of getting several recordings of each song and then picked the best of the best. It sounds wonderful.

 

Certainly folk and smaller groups sound great live, even better than studio.
I've always liked Loudan Wainwright's live performances far better than his studio work. "Career Moves" was recorded on one night, I believe.

Dan C

 

Even they did some manipulation. They would edit different performances together even going so far as to fly in better solos and vocal lines from other performances. It was all technically live but they were never really performed like they are on the CD. But that's just nit-picking now isn't it.

 

I just wish that we got the ORIGINAL Got Live LP, in true, bizarre wide overdubbed stereo, instead of the 1986 remix that we have now. Whatever happened to "giving us the feel of the original LPs"? This is a 1986 LP, not the 1966 LP that I know & (strangely) love!

 

Yes, that LP is really a strange beast. The original was confusing, to say the least, and then they gave us that "alternate" version for CD, with a totally different mix, and a different intro and different (vocal) version of Under My Thumb.

I'd sure love to figure out exactly how that album was put together. As crappy as it is, it was one of the first Stones albums I heard, and I've always liked it...

 

"Bravo!" to Larry G. for calling ABKCO on the "giving you the feel of the original lps" line.
This is the kind of hype that most listeners and, sadly, most reviewers just accept as fact. These companies are like politicians--they'll say anything to get your vote/puchase.

To quote Chuck Berry, "Don't let the same dog bite you twice." I'm thankful that with things our Mr. Hoffman works on, we get what we are promised!

 

Probably one of the most notorious of these overdubbed 'live' records is Unleashed In The East by Judas Priest. Rob Halford re-recorded his entire vocal track in addition to the other changes that they made. It's no wonder people have jokingly referred to this album as Unleashed In The Studio.

 

Even more bizarre was the mono vinyl version of the original Got Live. It was basically the same as the stereo version but had a really funny and amazing transition between Have You Seen Your Mother and Satisfaction at the end -- very abrupt, which sent my cousin (whose record it was) and me into gales of laughter every time we listened to it.

As for the stereo version, one side seemed to be only Mick's voice and the other side Mick's voice and all the music. I used to listen to it in mono by switching only to the side with the music -- sort of balanced things out by reducing Mick's overly prominent voice. My stereo at the time had one of those mode controls that let you play L or R through both channels. (Which was how I listened to all mono records, as I figured it halved the clicks and pops.)

It is a shame the CDs are not the original recording of Got Live, as noted. The spoken into is different, as are Thumb and, I believe Cloud. I think the Stones did two shows at the Royal Albert Hall that night, and obviously, when they issued the CDs, they used performances of Thumb and Cloud from the "other" show.

 

The horrible Guns 'N Roses Live Era 2 CD set has a lot of (obvious) overdubbing. That's one that sticks out in my mind. What a disappointing release. :td:

 

Sort of reminds me of the MFSL Woodstock, straight off of the soundboard.

 

That's on the stereo as well. At the end of Mother they start to go into the Satisfaction riff, and then BOOM, big edit into the *real* Satisfaction. The change in crowd noise is huge at that point.

The stereo mix is essentially mixed like this: backing left, lead vocal (and some backing vocals) center, backing vocals and crowd noise right. The crowd noise is usually pretty low, so a lot of the time you just hear Mick (as if he was right in front of you).

A few notes:

- Get Off Of My Cloud is the same performance on the two "versions".
- while Under My Thumb has different vocals on the two versions, the music is in fact the same.
- despite what the back cover says, *nothing* came from the Royal Albert Hall. *If* things were actually live, they were from other shows.
- again, while the vocals are different, the backing on I'm Alright is the same as that on the Got Live EP from a year earlier. This raises the question - was *any* of the material actually "live"?

Note the London CD uses the stereo LP mix, albeit it with some post production - there are fade-outs between songs, with additional crowd noise mixed in to enable these fades. The original LP ran together with no fade-outs.

 

The one that amuses me the most has to be The Outsiders - Happening Live on Capitol. Side one kicks off with "Time Won't Let Me". Easy enough, nice stereo, but what is that I hear in the distant background? The horn section! Seems all they did was to dub crowd noise and delete the horn track from the mix. Works nicely though as an interesting artifact.

Best!

 

Luke: Thank you for your comments on my comments. I've admired your Stones research as expressed here and at other websites.

Regarding Got Live, I haven't listened to the vinyl stereo version in perhaps 20 years and the mono vinyl version even longer ago than that, so I welcome your observations. I don't have a turntable right now, so can't check

A couple of points: On the "new" versions (CD, SACD) it seems as if the very opening guitar riff of Thumb is a bit truncated. Instead of "da-dum-da-dee-dum-dum," it seems to go "dum-da-dee-dum-dum," missing that very first note. Has anyone else heard this? And is this almost inaudible glitch (if it is one) on the original vinyl? I don't seem to remember it (but again, it's been a long time).

The reason why Cloud seems to me different in the new versions is that in the third verse, it seems as if the rhythm section goes into a very pronounced "La Bamba" sort of pattern for a few bars. I don't remember this from the vinyl versions, although maybe it wasn't noticeable on the rather primitive system I used to listen to the album on.

And yes, there is a very big difference in the Have You Seen Your Mother/Satisfaction transition between the mono and stereo vinyl versions. In the former, the transition is extremely abrupt, without the drawnout, wavering drop down into the Satisfaction riff that occurs in the stereo version.

Anyway, that's the way I remember it, and I'd be interested if others have similar memories.

Got Live was, I think, the first Stones album I acquired, sometime in late 1966, at Paradise Records in Hollywood, which was also the source for UK editions of Aftermath and A Hard Day's Night, which I still have and value greatly, along with other gems. It was also where I picked up the original Liver Than You'll Ever Be (Lurch Records) late in 1969. Those were the days . . . .

 

Well, my opinions are as equally one sided as Roberts (welcome), but in the opposite direction. I only own the original stereo US vinyl version of this lp - never heard the mono, CD or SACD versions.

I always loathed this lp - but in that case this is GOOD news. When I go through my old "high school" vinyl, there are 3 basic conditions - lousy (lp's that were favorites of my peers and myself), very good (albums that only I liked), and excellent (albums that neither me or my friends cared for). My "Got Live" is almost pristine (not for collectors, cover wear alone has left the "ring", but the disc itself still has the "black rainbow" - if ya know what I mean). Based on your verbal observations, I will give it a spin and report back.

 

*Finally*, someone else interested in this interesting "live" album...<g>

Yes, there's an edit on the CD version. If memory serves, though, I don't *think* it is the first note, but rather the third:

"dum-da-dum-dum"

I don't have the ABKCO version handy, but yes, there's a "La Bamba" bit in the third verse on the stereo mix. Along with the sound of marimbas!

Ahh, ok, that's very interesting. My understanding was that the mono and stereo mixes matched edit-wise.

 

Listened last night - it does have a certain energy...

The stage announcer has a decidedly American accent, strange for what was SUPPOSED to be Albert Hall. After saying "over there, Billy Wyman", Charlies drums pound out the beat and THE COMPLETE riff to UMT is banged out. Where do those handclaps and VERY CLEAN backing vocals come from? Background vocs even more isolated and clean during Cloud.

There are no fades between tracks, and none really sound like they are faded over audience noise, except for Fortune Teller which fades out completely.

On Not Fade Away a tambourine is banging out on the instrumental track. You would think it would be in Micks vocal track, if he were playing it. Since the harp is heard underneath the vocal one would assume that it is played by Brian....

All vocals and instruments go to the left channel for Fortune Teller, which is obviously just the studio version with audience sounds in the right channel.

The riff from Satisfaction intros The Last Time. Obviously overdubbed handclaps. In the second chorus, there is a lot of audience noise in the backing vocal mike, this may be the only live backing vocal on the disc.

19th and Time sound pretty good here. 19th is very sloppy/fast, and somehow that's a good thing.

I'm Alright does seem to be the EP backing track...

Hard edit into Have you Seen Your Mother. The solo guitar at the end picks up the Satisfaction riff, which is played once - then a hard edit into what APPEARS to be a genuine live track for the second repeat of the riff. This second repeat is in re-channeled stereo - it appears to be a mono source. Then there is another hard edit into the third repeat, where the stereo spread becomes consistent with the rest of the album (vocals center/right, backing left, audience right).

Another thing I noticed about this mix is that the lead vocals really aren't centered for MANY (not all) of the songs. They are much more prominent in the right channel, maybe that's why they are so much LOUDER than the backing.

Bottom line - it was sort of fun, but still a mess.

 

A few notes:

- before the announcer, you hear "we want the Stones". Taken from the EP?
- you can hear "Brian Jones" faintly as the drums start to Under My Thumb
- the ABKCO version has a totally different intro - "And the Stones you shall have..."

Overdubs, silly! As I've said before, it isn't clear if *any* of the stuff is actually live.

I've sync'd the two up, and they are a perfect match:

http://lukpac.org/mp3/im_alright.mp3

I think the only edit is between the first and second playing of the riff (which is between the two performances). I think the only reason the second riff sounds strange is because the crowd noise is *SO* loud just after the edit (it comes down quickly, although gradually). I certainly don't hear an edit between the second and third riffs (the third being when the drums start). The second riff isn't rechanneled - the backing is clearly to the left with the crowd noise mostly on the right.