Groovetracer subplatter and P3-24 a Home Run!

I don't need an education on writing music, tuning a piano, mixing a multi-track, or how to cut a lacquer or master a recording, as I have studied these points with musicians and audio engineers. Because I sell used records.... they contain all of these things.

 

There's an implication in your posts that Frank is disparaging of Rega's products, and nothing could be further from the truth. Frank is the one most devoted Rega customers I know. Regarding the stock Rega subplatter, he is making statements of fact regarding the construction and quality of materials in stock Rega subplatters. Statments of fact cannot be construed as disparaging, they are simply facts. I think it's important to understand that Regas, like all products, are mfd under a cost-constaint, as specified by it's BOM and COGS. This means that there are compromises made in engineering specifications to provide a specific level of functionality at a specific manufacturing cost. One of these trade-off is the type and quality of steel (case-hardened, not through-hardened, and a steel, not ceramic, ball bearing) used in making bearings for the stock subplatter.

Does this mean that the stock Rega tables do not sound good? No, they sound great, and Frank would be one of the first person to strongly support that. His GT subplatter is a reflection of his passion for Rega TTs.

But even Roy Gandy would acknowledge that they sound even better with a GrooveTracer Reference subplatter. What you seem to be missing, that all of his customers understand, is that Frank is taking a great product and making an even better one out of it; it's his admiration for these products that is his motivation for doing this.

 

That is well stated , although I'm not sure that Roy G. really cares much on the subject, in fact, he'd probably just laugh it off.

 

Actually I've talked to Roy about this...

His answer was "Why not just buy a P7 or P9 instead, we offer a machined subplatter in those models."

However, for the Rega enthusiast that wants a bump in performance, but doesn't want to spend the cost of a P7 or P9, the Groovetracer will give you that for a reasonable cost with 5 minutes of setup.

No, it won't turn a P3 or P5 into a P7 or P9, but for $229 it WILL give you a marked increase in the amount of music that your table will reveal with no side effects, nor will it give performance in one area and take away from another.

It's still the best no brainer upgrade I've ever seen on a high end audio product, and I have always been typically ANTI-mod of any kind.

As it would probably cost Rega at least $100 to make machined subplatters for the P3/P5 in quantity, that would add at least $500 to the table at retail, which would seriously upset the price point at which this table was built to. Roy and his engineering staff all freely admit the P9 is the best table they build at this point in time with few compromises made in terms of design, build and parts quality. All of the other tables are built to a specific price point, offering as much technology as they can afford to put in the box for that price.

Again, this is a product that allows you to cheat the odds a bit, because you aren't paying an importer, distributor and dealer mark up on it.

 

I check these groovetracer threads just to see the threadcrap and ******** that kt88 comes up with. thanks kt88 haha.

 

Well said, and my thoughts exactly with the exception that I do not see a subplatter as the best upgrade for the money that one could make. That's what Rega is all about, value - performance for the price paid. I don't think that Frank is solely out to better the audio world but rather to make a buck on it. There is mark-up in his products. There is nothing wrong with there being mark-up in his products. That's not the point. The reason that I don't find a replacement subplatter a great value is that it is one of the least important parts of the whole. It does include a tighter tolerance ball bearing, which is not a bad thing, yet it does not justify the total cost of the unnecessary subplatter itself IMO. I'd just rather replace the bearing for a fraction of that cost. My point here is that the money spent on the subplatter could have been spent on a cartridge or a phono stage, which will provide more of an improvement. The stock bearings are for all practical purposes dead quiet on the tables. I've seen much, much worse on other brands. I've also had some very high quality jeweled bearing equipped tables here and the difference from a true, designed from scratch and complete bearing assembly using the best materials available to the stock Rega table is not huge in itself. That level of bearing quality and design does make a difference but is only a fraction of the differences in the overall designs so it didn't even contribute the whole improvement from the P3. In short, the cartridge on either table (or tonearm) makes a much greater impact than the bearing, even when it's a complete bearing. So I agree with Roy in that by simply getting the better table, you solve the bearing "insecurity issues" but more importantly you get a better arm and integrally designed platter with it.

The counterweight is pure jewelry IMO. There are other similar weights on the market which all perform worse than the stock unit. That seems to me to just be an item that adds no value but is for sale just the same. The general reviews are very mixed on the weights.

So I'll even agree that the subplatter might make for "icing on the cake" if you've already bought the best cartridge that you'll ever want and will not be upgrading the arm or table. It might offer some small level of refinement over a bearing alone but the jury is still out on that one. It's not something that I'd buy, but that doesn't mean that

It is not the product that I was responding to here until it was continually brought up. The reason that I posted on it in the first place in this thread was due to the description that Frank keeps giving of the Rega spindle shaft as being "soft" and subject to "wear". Surely everything is relative and we can consider diamonds to be soft when exposed to the force and heat of the earths interior. It does not make any sense here and is only being used as a sales tool to justify a harder material for an application where it is not necessary. We still have the brass bearing half that is the softest part of the entire assembly and which has not been machined to match the GT bearing half. Surely that will "wear" faster. The truth is that nothing is going to wear out in the bearings, stock or otherwise. The stock bearing will perhaps "wear-in" a bit as it becomes even more polished after running but it'll take a while and will never see enough friction to "wear-out" due to the low speed, pressure, and oil film. So it isn't the product here that is of concern, it's the continued use of broad stokes to paint a dark light on the Rega product and a fine edge to spotlight his. I am not concerned with his product. It's entirely another thing to have someone suggest that there is something wrong with another in an attempt to increase their sales however.

I'd have to give as much credit to a bearing replacement or a subplatter replacement, sonically, to perhaps a cable upgrade. Some might argue that it is worthwhile but I'd rather have a cartridge or arm upgrade. I'll definitely be listening to one soon to make a direct comparison without the effect of placebo or wishful thinking.
-Bill

 

You're most welcome to my always insightful and well reasoned responses.
-Bill

 

"...I'll definitely be listening to one soon to make a direct comparison without the effect of placebo or wishful thinking.
-Bill"

It's a little late to be objective, isn't it?

 

Not for the sake of objectivity.

It's the placebo effect and wishful thinking of listeners who have not done a controlled listening test that will be challenged. You're invited.
-Bill

 

We did that with identical P3's. One had the GT one was stock. Same cartridges on each table and identical LP's one serial number apart from MoFi. Audiophiles and non audiophiles all picked the GT table 100%.

None were told which table was which, only given the remote control to switch between a and b....

Again, you are crapping on a product that you've never used. It's really getting boring.

 

KT88's 'truth' that nothing is going to wear is contrasted with his subsequent belief that 'perhaps' wear will occur! Wow that's consistent. Spoken like a true self described engineering expert. Expert BS that is.

I am curious how Mr. KT88 will elevate himself above the placebo effect and wishful thinking that obviously afflicts every mortal on this thread - except himself. Probably with a pinch of his own pixie dust.

In my years here on this forum I have never read more consistently arrogant, factually incorrect, thread crapping, biased posts.

 

You like to twist everything to make me look like the bad guy, don't you.
Your first post on this thread was-

You might consider buying just a ceramic ball bearing for much less than a full subplatter. You'll save a bunch of money and also get a similar if not identically tighter tolerance/lower noise interface, minus the jewelry.

If I'm not mistaken, USER input was requested, yet you feel the need to speak loudly about something you don't have experince with. You then offered 2 more posts on the thread before I even responded. Nothing had been mentioned about the hardness of the shaft. Sorry to tell you that you have a problem with lying.
I think by now most people who read this thread will see that you like to forcefully drill your hardlines point across without listening to the facts.

 

Frank,
It seems that twisting words is indeed your thing. You left out this bit intentionally:

Not that that changes your pointless shaft hardness comments. I do have experience with the various bearings on many turntables. Many are very finely machined and use completely original designs. They don't equate to the resulting hyperbole being cited here.

So even with that in mind, I'll take the direct experience comments by Jeff and you as a challenge and so will be running a few tests of my own on the specific item in question here. So not only will I have broad experience with a wide range of turntable bearings and designs, but specifically this modification. It'll be a hoot. If the winner can pick the table with the GT subplatter, he'll win the subplatter. It'll be a great promotion for the effectiveness of your product. Sound like fun?!
-Bill

 

The name's Bill. I don't refer to you as "fanboy" now do I? Let's give your reading comprehension a redo OK?

You're invited to the listening test. It's not my susceptibility to placebo that will be challenged but rather yours.
-Bill

 

Don't we all know how this is going to play out.....

"it'll be a hoot..." Doesn't sound terribly objective to me.

 

I don't know how it'll play out. I have a hunch though. I'll have others do the listening and they will have their own input. I'll probably also demo some other items so it'll be less boring and tedious. They can go back and forth, no stressful A/B unless they request it.

I know how to have fun. If some folks find the Gt to be consistently better, then I'll gladly eat crow for lunch. I'd not bet your bottom dollar on it though. My take from listening to a lot of other decks, including much more expensive ones is that the difference isn't just about bearing quality and that changing only half of that one item isn't going to be as dramatic as some make it out to be. In fact, I'd guess that most listeners will not be able to hear it at all or will simply confuse the two to a degree making it chance, or be able to hear a difference but not really find one "better". I've seen all of those results with other products. That's why they make more than one.

Let's cut the bickering and personal crap, how bout it? I'm trying to stick to only the object and find that I keep having to rebuke some jabs directed personally rather than defending the product if that's really what they intended. If they just want to make personal jabs, then have at it I suppose. It isn't in the spirit of the forum and it's not why I participate.
-Bill

 

Now that sounds like a complete waste of your time, don't you think?
You've spent the last 3 years mocking my products (without direct experience) so who in their right mind would think you would do a 180 and offer favourable comments now?
If you would have been open to trying out the product from day one, your comments or opinion would have credence, but you've already laid the groundwork for what will be a pointless "experiment".
I think the longer you dwell on this matter, the more it looks like you have an axe to grind (although that's obvious). You threadcrap every time the product comes up and everyone already knows where you stand.

 

Your posts in this thread have explicitly demonstrated a lack of knowledge and experience with standard engineering and machining technology and trade practices. Yet you forge on with mangled, incorrect interpretations, conclusions and mis-information.

Actually hardness is a factor in engineering, although you apparently do not grasp that. So leave that to the experts - keep your lay conclusions.

Others here have experience listening to turntables too. Just because you claim yourself to be a dealer does not mean you have 'better' ears or understand sound better. The focus is ultimately whether a user enjoys a product.

A) the OP wanted USER comments. You have not used or heard the groovetracer - according to your own information. You have nothing to offer on the subject except an obvious antagonism to it, disguised as critique.

B) Those of us who bought the product and found it to be a significant improvement on the P3 and P5 series are attacked by your comments invoking the banned subjective / objective debate.

C) The tone and content of your posts, including A & B above, is classic thread crap.

D) Your constant self-puffery as an expert and being reasonable, when it is very clear you are not, detracts from any credibility you might have had.

 

That's hilarious.

And I'm sure the listeners you invite will have no idea that you've been making negative comments on the product for years before hand. Why don't you take the time you're going to waste on this pointless test and donate your valuable time to charity?

 

groove tracer

I have a modified Rega P3 2000, I was wondering whether the groove tracer sub platter is a worthwhile mod.

Anyone using one on their Rega.

 

a) if you use the search engine, you'll find plenty of discussion of the groovetracer products--they seem to be well liked

b) the guy who makes them is a member of the forum

c) welcome to the forum

 

Definitely worthwhile. I upgraded the platter and subplatter on my P5 and P3-24.

 

Have a GT subplatter on my P25 and a GT counterweight on my P9. Recommended.

 

I have a Groovetracer Reference subplatter installed on my P3-2000. Highly recommended

 

thanks/ merci