Has the vinyl resurgence led to increased sales in the HiFi industry?

I was watching the video below from 2012 today. I'll withhold my comments (for now) on how obviously clueless most of these people are about the "missing generations" they are talking about (sorry if some of you are in the video).

The discussion initially starts off lamenting why every luxury goods category except HiFi is growing, but seems mostly about how to attract a new generation altogether.

The resurgence of vinyl is sited by many as an indicator that HiFi will make a comeback. I'm curious though... other than companies like Rega who sell a lot of entry level gear, has the HiFi industry (particularly the medium/higher end however it should be defined) grown in some level of approximation to the growth of vinyl sales?

Why or why not?

 

Wow, no one wants to discuss OR no one has any data?

 

I don't have any data but from my own personal experience,
my daughter and her friends have embraced vinyl but they buy those $200.00 Crosley record players.
I keep trying to talk her into a complete starter system but she seems content.
certainly see a good inventory of turn tables so they must be selling.

 

It's an interesting question, but absent any sales figures I don't think anyone can accurately answer the question. Does the high-end audio industry have a trade group that keeps track of these sorts of things, is there even a working definition of high-end audio?

My guess would be headphones, portables, bluetooth devices, TV soundbars, etc -- and all pretty much at the lower end -- must far outstrip sales growth in other audio equipment these days, and if anything is leading sales in older categories it would be desktop components of the sort Audioengine has made it's calling card. I mean, don't forget, while the vinyl market is growing relative to itself, and manufacturers like Rega have said they've had their best sales ever, it's still a tiny fraction of the industry as a whole (despite the growth of vinyl sales last year, vinyl sales were still dwarfed by CD sales), and audience for dedicated audio systems seems a bit like the audience for newspapers and landline phones.

 

No data

 

As a teacher I hear chatter about vinyls from time to time, but never about equipment of any kind.

I also work at a coffee shop in the summer and it's the same story.

 

I think it could well be a question of what, exactly, is enjoying a resurgence. I enjoy vinyl for its distinct sound (even though some swear it's "worse" than digital for them), for the thrill of the hunt, for the larger artwork, for the fact that it doesn't come in jewel cases, for the involving experience of putting it on, for the beauty of watching it spin, for the paradoxical sense of tangibility and yet fragility of the medium, for the wonder of the incredible precision of the creation and playback processes... I could go on. And as much as I don't want to think I care about being cool, who knows, maybe the cool has crept into my subconscious too.
It could be that when you strip out all but the last (and it's not that that isn't worth anything), or at least put all the other traits far below trend following, you get a pretty good picture of the constituency of the "resurgence," for better or worse. Hence Crosley. Hence Rainbo. Hence Urban Outiftters selling vinyl. Hence all kinds of things I could complain about.
To put it another way, I wonder how many of the "new arrivals" fall into which generation. I'm 32, and I sometimes feel like that's juuuuust old enough to kinda sorta "get it" and appreciate great sound and not just great rapport with whoever is supposed to be cool. And to be honest, I'm probably not even right. I'll probably want to come back and slap current me in another ten years.

 

No. Sales are down in all categories of hi-fi in general. There are mfrs of extremely expensive products who are claiming higher sales but I say "claim" as I have no data and they don't release it that would back that up. I can say that after 18 years in the hi-fi business that sales basically stopped about 5 or 6 years ago when the stock market and banking system basically took a crap on the US economy. It has started to pick-up a bit again this spring as attested to by many industries but that's a slow and painful "recovery" and it's still not where it was, not that it should have ever been there in the first place, which seems also to be the cause of the collapse.

Rega has certainly sold more P1 and now the RP1 tables as those items didn't even exist before the new interest in Lps. I have seen sales a bit slower in tables, even this spring than it was 7 and even 12 years ago. I have to agree with the majority here who have seen no evidence of hi-fi as it relates to kids listening to vinyl records. They mostly have old, junk tables or new junk tables. Even the old geezers who have pulled out their dusty record collections have also blown the dust off of old tables that were in the same closet.

The reason is that people just don't sit down and listen to music much anymore. I am talking about people in general, not the music and audio zealots who read and post on forums. Regardless of the generation, that is the case. The electronics industry is being led by video and those figures are down as well. products are being made cheaper and the only ones getting fat are the Chinese big wheels and Mama Cass.

Sadly from the perspective of a family run bricks and mortar shop, the tiny sales growths that are realized are largely from the biggest of the on-line merchants who don't need the support. Many of the dedicated, local audio shops have closed over the years and some of those were even larger stores and chains. The audio enthusiast seems to be very fickle, choosing to lament about the loss of places to shop locally while shopping almost exclusively on-line. I am very happy to have made the many happy customers that I have over the years, most of those who have traveled some ways to visit or who have ordered over the phone, but am saddened by the fact that the audio business has shrunk to a market dominated by a few warehouse type operations and that most people have lost the ability to see and hear products locally.
-Bill

 

Kids today don't have hundreds or thousands of dollars to spend on anything. They're buying cheap gear because it's what they can afford. Rip on Crosley all ya want, but kids can actually afford to buy one, as well as vintage stereos and decks on the local Craigslist.

Also: They can also find Crosleys in local stores, as opposed to the odd hi-hi shop that is always buried in the middle of nowhere, with no promotion and no advertising. Chances are, the Millenials don't know your specialty store even exists.

I know that Rega and Pro-Ject are successful with their budget turntables, so that's good. But there needs to be a vastly greater push to sell these products, and educate the public on how it all works. It's 2014, not 1979, and the hi-fi audio industry needs to catch up with the times.

 

I was talking to a guy at AQ today about this very issue. While the future of listening to music may be bright, it will be very different than what many of us grew up with. I've got 14 and 16 year old sons. Neither of them is interested in the least in hi-fi systems in their rooms. I know, I've offered to set them up. They hear mine but prefer listening to $25 MP3 players and, what have become, disposable earbuds. That, friends, is the likely future of audio for the masses. There will be a group of diehards like us well into the future but the nature of hi-fi as we knew it is beginning its end.

 

Actually the slide to the end began some time ago. The trouble with most who don't recognize that is simply their near-sightedness. People who are passionate about something cannot sometimes see the forest for the trees. More specifically they can't see over their Klipschorns to see that their neighbor has only a Bose wave thing on the table top and the other neighbor has a kid with only a tablet.
-Bill

 

In my line of work, I see another demographic that appears to have departed the high end audio area - the young professional. You can disparage the young lawyers, doctors and accountants who used to buy McIntosh and B&W (or whatever). But today, even successful young professionals are often struggling under a mountain of educational debt, and no longer have the extra cash they used to.

 

Semantics, as to when the beginning of the end began. Regardless, it's on the decline and the hipster doofus fad for vinyl won't save it.

 

One thing to remember. Companies may be facing declining demand in countries like Japan and the US, but there are many other countries in this world. It is not inconceivable that large segments of the world population could develop an interest in high end audio or home theater.

 

If you watch the video, it's pretty telling as to why the current industry will continue shrinking. The entire room has maybe 2-3 people under 40 in it. In panicked voices, they spend the entire hour taking about ways they can convince younger consumers that the way theyisten to music REALLY is the best way.

No one seems to stop and say, "Wait a minute. How can we evolve HiFi to meet the changing ways consumers now want to enjoy music?"

It's natural. These guys are, let's be honest, too old to learn new tricks (Rega guy is the exception). They aren't really innovating in HiFi anymore, just tweaking the kinds of products they've been building for the last 40 years for a shrinking market segment.

I put for the proposition in another thread that the HiFi industry would be better off if much of the industry consolidated. I was, of course , roundly criticized. People want choice!!!

My argument was that fewer companies could command larger chunks of market share providing more revenue to reinvest in R&D. I mean real R&D, not tweaking on current HiFi paradigms.

For people in their 30's and certainly for people in their 20's, music is highly personal and portable. The luxury HiFi brands of the future are the ones who embrace this fact and build products that allow this generation to enjoy their music on the go. Build a trusted brand there and when/if they are ready to move to a living / listening room setup, they'll look to the brands they know and trust.

I also commented that the costs if HiFi have gotten out of hand. The problem with this is that it creates the perception that unless the consumer is prepared to fork over $20k+, they might as well stick to their Beats. There's not enough PERCEIVED middle ground. Manufactures need to focus on innovating more at the lower end of the market and stop building cost-no-object products.

Which brings me to my final point... People in their 30's/40's (prime higher end market) lived thru the dot com crash, 9/11, the real estate crash and the 2007 financial collapse. They are hesitant to spend their money on stuff. It feels superfluous and fleeting. I'm honestly embarrassed to tell my friends what I spent on my system.

This generation (at least the ones who care about music) spends money on experiences (travel, food, etc), not stuff. Indie / hipster kids (even the ones with plenty of money) don't want their friends to think they are superficial. Consumerism is superficial.

So if you wanna build a brand with 20/30/40 year olds who can afford higher end HiFi, you have to make it highly personal & portable (at least a portable component), reasonably priced, and an authentic experience (e.g. no B.S. audiophile speak or over the top claims & no tech jargon, just plain speak). The brand should be marketed as an experience.

The current crop of a HiFi leaders would do well to hire some young blood to run their companies and disappear to help behind the scenes. I know that's hard to hear, but imagine back to when you were in your 20's and 30's. Did you feel that guy's in their 50's and 60's were the wise trend setters you wanted to follow?

This isn't an ageist argument. I'm 37 and will be at that point soon enough. But watching a roomful of 50 and 60 year old dudes (they're all dudes) pontificate on how they can attract a new generation to HiFi was laughable. Their best idea seems to be listening rooms on college campuses. Hilarious. And completely outta touch.

Of course, no founder who poured his heart and soul into his venture and had great success is ever likely to replace himself with a 30 year old with less experience. That's the nature of the innovator's dilemma. Too much pride to build a lasting business.

But other companies more attuned to the HiFi needs of the next generation of consumers will figure it out. HiFi will never die. Someone will just figure out an innovative way to get the newer generations what they want.

Note: typed on my phone, so apologies for any crazy auto-corrects or incoherent sentences.

 

I don't really know anybody who buys records and actually listens to them. Everybody I know buys their music online or gets a CD.

That's one good thing, it's driving down used CD prices.

 

I do t think we should look at what teens are doing as any indication of the future. Music is increasingly personal for anyone under 40. But so is life.

I bet they'd be blown away if you set them up with a fantastic portable DAC with really nice headphones.

 

I'm going to be the contrarian here in some respects, though I don't really disagree with the conclusion that serious 'hobbyist' hi-fi(1)is a narrow, and probably shrinking market. But, serious, hobbyist hi-fi has always been a niche market. Back in the 'boom years' (which I would regard as the 70's-80's after the widespread introduction of solid state gear and before home theatre took over), my suspicion is that the vast majority of customers in most 'stereo stores' were buying modest turntables, receivers and bookshelf speakers or the occasional floorstander. The tweakier stuff- tables sold with the ability to change arms, the odd moving coil + step up transformer, separate preamp and basic power amp (including the tube stuff that survived as well as the brands like ARC and C-J in the US) and more substantial loudspeakers were not really what most people bought or had in their homes. That was the province of the 'hi-fi' nuts, audiophiles or others who had sufficient interest, time and means to pursue an elusive "best."
I think the mass market is well satisfied today by consumer products that, while not necessarily 'hi-fi guy' approved, probably does a decent job- streaming, computer-based audio (2), an A/V receiver with a DAC and speakers that benefit from digital room correction. But, compare the 'hobbyist' stuff available today to what was available in the days of yore- far more turntables, arms, cartridges, phono stages, line stages, preamps, integrated amps, tube, solid state, various classes of operation; really decent tube gear at relatively low cost, attention paid to cables, stands, isolation, room treatments, a lot of it stuff that wasn't readily available 30 years ago.
I think we are in a golden age of hi-fi despite all the issues with the economy, the amount of disposable income available to young people in a tougher job market, etc. I'm not talking about the uber high-end. And, I'm not even taking account of the used market. Despite the issues that Audiogon has suffered in the last couple years, we have access to far more used high end gear via the Internet than we could have ever found, even if you haunted every serious store in NY or LA back in the day.
I'm not saying the industry isn't changing, or doesn't need to change. What I am saying is that the mass market stuff was always a large part of the market, and the stuff that the enthusiasts cared about was really a pretty small fraction of it. Plus ca change... and all that.



__________
1. Note I didn't say 'hi-end' because I'm not equating pursuit of the hobby with $, although there's that too.
2. This is probably where the growth is, when it is plug and play for higher resolution; even though i've been around audio a long time, it's still hard for me to get my head around computer-based audio in terms of formats, standards, interfaces, software and the like. I would imagine that while younger generations may find computer-based everything more intuitive than I do, I don't think that a good enough job has been done yet to make the products easy to access and put together without help. Instead of having the 'stereo guy' come to your house to set up your system, you have somebody installing iPad based controllers for a music server with software. That market has to grow as prices for better digital gear drop. Look at what happened in so-called 'high-end' home video. What cost 10 or 20 thousand bucks back in the mid-90's is a fraction of that today, and it is pretty much plug and play.

 

Brian, I think the problem that the business faces is that most people are happy with lower fidelity playback. It's more about the music, such as it is, than the realistic reproduction of it. As I think about it a little, my guess is the effort of younger people will be focused more towards the video/home theater experience while music will be towards portability and bluetooth speakers.

 

Aren't you overlooking the obvious fact that the product itself has been designed for lofi listening? One big reason why younger listeners would not be interested in the audiophile system is that there wouldn't be much attraction to listening to massively compressed music on a high end system. Yes there are cultural and economic reasons that contribute but let's face it, very few people back in the day had good systems. My parents listened on a cabinet console system with a low grade turntable and that was better than many. Hifi is always a niche field but even the niche is shrinking because the younger generation derives little benefit from it unless they listen primarily to older recordings. That being said, they Can hear the difference. I buy better headphones for my young relatives. Everyone of them has loved them. I ould see audiophile systems residing mainly with headphone systems.

 

Well, pretty much what young people are doing is the only thing you can look at if you want an indication of the future. What old people are doing won't tell you anything about that. And my experience with people my daughter's age (she's 22) and younger pretty much comports with csgreene's -- for the most part, except really for the young musicians I've worked with, they have no interest in good or better sound, the idea of sitting and just listening to music instead of doing something while music is playing seems borderline crazy to them, that the last thing they want is a portable DAC and nice headphones, they want to run everything from a single device, preferably their phones, and they want it to connect wirelessly to some kind of speakers that are small, battery operated and loud. The number of people who were audiophiles was always a small percentage of the number of music fans, but for two generations it was almost a rite of passage -- to get your first stereo. That's over and done with and I don't think it's coming back.

 

All great points as usual. The biggest challenge in this hobby is the definition between HiFi and high end. The lack of a HiFi "middle" (for alack of a better word) market is what's most worrisome.

BMW sells a "3" series for a reason. I'd argue that what we have now is a glut of Ferrari's and a lot of "7" series manufacturers with some solid "3" series stuff, BUT a perception that it's all Ferrari's and "7" series.

Perception is the biggest problem and the ultra high end, in my opinion, keeps the logical "3" series buyer away.

 

We aren't really talking about what "most people" are happy with. This is a hobby after all. I'm talking about attracting the guy (maybe even a few gals) for whom music is important. That's a different market than "most people", but most manufacturers don't seem to understand that market AT ALL.

I personally blame the massive generation gap. If you're too far removed from the generation you want to market to, you end up trying to market to "most people" because you think casting a wide net is the way to go. In reality, you're always better going very niche and building a brand that caters specifically to that niche.

 

Really? That surprises me. I live in Madison too and know tons of people, men and women ranging from 20 to 60 years old, who listen to vinyl. And while I buy a lot of vinyl myself, I'm the only person I know who still buys CD's. Vinyl in Madison has been pretty huge for the last 5 years or so, at least in my experience.

And regarding the thread topic, most of the vinyl listeners I know have a mix of vintage and new hifi equipment, with vinyl being the driving force behind most new gear purchases. Not to say this relates to any larger trend, but it's definitely what I've seen here in Madison.

 

Totally agree. The problem is that the HiFi industry is stuck building equipment that doesn't take the fact of compression into account. You can't tell me that some brilliant engineer can't figure out a way to make overly compressed music sound great.

But the current owners of HiFi manufacturers are stuck lamenting the low quality of the source files instead of actually innovating around the realities of those sources.

EVERYONE appreciates good quality sound. It's true that ewer will pay for it. But if you can build products that let them enjoy their music in a new way at a reasonable price, they will pay it. Look at the success of Beats as an example (even if we all agree their quality sucks, it shows there is a market for better sound).

I think what we are seeing more than anything is an entire paradigm shift. The old guard wants more of the same, while ignoring the realities of what consumers want. Not a big market with younger people for equipment that makes Patricia whatever-her-name-is sound great. Make products that make today's music sound even better, market it correctly and you'll see improved sales.

Rega does it well, but you know what... I see their ad's in music magazines. I rarely see other HiFi manufacturers advertising in music or lifestyle mags. They waste their budget going after the increasingly dying upper end of the market. It's unfortunate really.