Has the vinyl resurgence led to increased sales in the HiFi industry?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Brian Gupton, Aug 13, 2014.

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  1. Defdum&blind

    Defdum&blind Forum Resident



    The gist of my post were the reasons why certain music was being used not in endorsement of it and surprisingly this music also "represents the time with which it was made, both technically and culturally". If the demographic of the attendees was inverse, where 80% of them were under 30 years of age it would most likely be reflected by different music that represents the listening taste of this generation. Much of current gear that is being demonstrated is aimed at an audience of this current generation. The auditioning of rock, be it classic or current (this wasn't stated in an earlier post) via headphones which is mostly a youth demographic highlights this. Headphones and their amps, computer audio products and DACs. The software that is available at audio shows though, from what I have seen is primarily audiophile and reissues of music from the '50s to the '70s. However it is the hardware that is the core of what is being promoted at these events. The point of those participating in audio shows is to sell hardware and not software. Hardware manufacturers and dealers have been aware of the demographic profile of buyers for decades. Many of them will and do play current music if that's what it takes to reach a broader demographic.

    It was music that got me into audio as a hobby. It's the hardware that allows me to connect to the music. I have found that the better the hardware the more I am able to connect with music and I know that my sentiment is shared by many.

    I spent about almost double for a three day pass for the last years Toronto TAVES audio show including tickets for a commuter train and found the event stimulating. I heard the same old drivel in many of the rooms and heard music that was new to me which I enjoyed and sought out to purchase. A factor in the music heard in my experience is that as a mature hobbiest (I'm 58), meaning I have been into audio since the mid '70s so my system and expectations have both evolved so my interest lies mainly in the higher end segment. The majority of hardware I audition is demonstrated with music that the dealer believes will help sell their product to someone who may buy and not to those who just want to hear their favourite artist or song. They are there primarily to market and sell and not to primarily to entertain. Many dealers will honour requests to those who bring their own music and generally are open minded enough to audition with something different even if it means the listener is not going to feel they are "standing next to the guy playing the upright bass".

    People new to the hobby, especially the younger music lover tend to audition gear that is obtainable for them financially, I did this as well. There is a great amount of hardware (so called entry level) that is targeted to younger or less affluent people. However as the adolescent girl demographic, that's why the Justin Bieber reference, is not a serious factor in the buying of audio hardware, nor is the typical fifteen year old (or teenager) who are the biggest demographic in music sales. My remarks about the young demographic was not biased opinion or prejudice but an assessment that they are behind the software side of music and not the hardware side.

    As for "blatant ageism" try this "the music buying public isn't entirely comprised of old men in khaki shorts and Tevas". I wear black shorts myself and I have no idea what Tevas refers to.
     
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  2. eurekaiv

    eurekaiv Active Member

    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Edit: nevermind, I don't have time for this
     
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  3. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    This is and was my point all along, which is why the "ageism" stuff can get annoying. I don't necessarily think it's just an age gap, but also a gap in understanding how to appeal to any demographic outside of what the manufactures/dealers perceive to be the market.

    Most of the people into HiFi aren't nearly as into the "audiophile demo" types of recordings as the frequency they are played would suggest. I believe that to be true whether the attendee is in his 60's, 50's, 40's, 30's, etc. I think playing this stuff, even understanding the points you make above, can have the unintended consequence of making people who'd ordinarily get into HiFi question whether the hobby is for them at all. Keep in mind, these same manufacturers and dealers tend to play this stuff when you're doing an in-person showroom demo too. And a lot of would-be newbies don't know enough to bring their own listening material to a show or a showroom.

    I assert two problems with this mindset:
    1. It turns people who are really in to more popular modern music (note: I'm not talking about Justin Bieber or Miley Cyrus fans, I'm talking about the people who really care about music. The indie rockers, the collectors, the people who still pay for music on a regular basis, etc - you know who I mean, so let's try not to get caught up in who this is.) off from the hobby. It creates the sense of, "Well, if I'm not in to classical music or female vocalists and willing/able to spend $50K+ then I might as well just keep using my Beats.
    2. I worry that WAY too many HiFi systems are actually voiced with these types of audiophile demo musical selection in mind at the expense of making more modern music sound its best.
    We haven't really discussed the #2 topic here yet, but I have a growing suspicion that this is too frequent. I mentioned on another thread that one of my goto "separate the men from the boys" musical selections is The Cure's "Plainsong" (opening track of Disintegration). I use this selection because it is very challenging for a lot of systems to reproduce without turning it into mud. It's recorded pretty well, but not fantastic and there's a lot of "noise/distortion" to process.

    I don't want to exaggerate here, but I've played this track on at least two dozen systems in the last six months, most costing well over $50K and many costing well over $100K. I'd say only about 30-40% of those systems (being VERY generous here) could reproduce this track without it sounding like mud. I'm talking full-range speakers often costing as mush as a car that can't handle this track.

    Yet all of those systems could play your typical audiophile demo stuff really well. My theory is that engineers are making tradeoffs that help those types of musical selections shine, while paying very little attention to how to get the best out of more modern recordings and methods.

    I've heard it said MANY times that the reason so many reviewers use Classical recordings and female vocalists to evaluate a system is that if they can get an orchestra and a female vocalist to "sound natural/right", everything else will as well. I don't buy that argument at all.

    Some speakers/systems sound fantastic with Classical/Jazz/Vocalists. In fact, I'd argue that the overwhelming majority of good speakers / systems do a more than adequate job here. It seems these types of music are much less taxing to get right. Now, getting that last 10% might be hard, but to my ears most equipment does a pretty solid job with this material.

    Well recorded source material sounds great on just about any above average equipment, so why continue optimizing here when the vast majority of the addressable market (including the current market as I've suggested and can easily be seen by perusing the Music part of this very forum) is listening to other types of music. Why not optimize for more compressed music since it's clear that today's artists like it and aren't going to stop?

    Smart engineers could figure this out. Many do whether it's done purposefully or not (my Opera Seconda's do a pretty fine job with modern recordings I must say). If the HiFi market did more work in this area AND marketed their products as solutions to this, I think they'd have more success attracting new generations AND getting more people in their 40's, 50's and 60's too (let's not forget that these people have also largely abandoned HiFi just as much as younger generations).

    I know I'm rambling here, so last point. When I flip through HiFi magazines, blogs or forums, it's clear that in some respects we're in the Golden Age of audio. There is just SO much high quality stuff out there. Yet, there is absolutely zero product differentiation. You can make a choice between tube/solid state, vinyl/digital, and various types of speakers. But within those areas, it is REALLY difficult to tell the difference between one product and another for 90% of the industry. That's a marketing/branding problem.

    Everyone's chasing the same very small segment and ignoring the bigger opportunities. At least, that's my perception. :)
     
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  4. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    All true, of course. Again, I think the "ageism" stuff we're falling into is counter-productive. I say that as the one who probably inadvertently started it.

    I think when myself and others fall into this talk, it isn't meant to be directed at a specific age group. I think it's a lazy way of pointing out that too much of HiFi is targeted to that one segment of the audiophile hobby at the expense of what we perceive to be the "silent majority". :)

    It's a way to kinda say, "Hey. What about us guy's over here? We buy stuff too? Why aren't you catering to us?"

    All hobbies need a healthy balance of old and new blood. I think all of us can agree that HiFi has lost much of that balance, at least for now, and would be better served if we were better able to attract new blood. That was the point of the video that spurred the discussion.
     
  5. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    Excellent post. I suspect you are on the mark about an awful lot. I have an Amy Grant vinyl album that I like a lot. But, it isn't well recorded and sounds like crap on any system I have played it on. No, she is not an audiophile artist though some of her albums have been very well recorded....but that isn't the point. It boils down to what you most listen to. I mainly listen to pop music from the 70's. There is a quick point of diminishing returns on that type of music. I have maybe ten grand in my system and quite frankly that is probably a lot more than I needed to spend to get 95% of what is in those recordings out of the grooves and sounding as good as it can. The payoff is those rare albums that are incredible...like my prized collection of MFSL vinyl for instance. The point is, how much do you want to spend to enjoy that experience....just depends on what your primary type of music consists of. For younger people that are mainly listening to newly recorded pop type albums, a traditional hi fi in the sense that most of us would consider hi fi would be a waste of money.

    Addressing the original spirit of the post, yes, for me the vinyl revival has gotten me to spend more. I bought a mid fi turntable and nice cartridge recently and put together a second listening room. I really don't think I would have done that otherwise. And I am definitely spending a lot on new vinyl acquisitions too.
     
  6. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    Brian- on system 'voicing' at the expense of being able to play hard rock, etc., I think the rationale for the audiophile is 'real instruments' in a 'natural acoustic'- thus, classical is the primary source material based on this standard, followed by the 'female vocalist with small jazz combo' as a concession to 'popular' music.
    The thinking is- if the system can deliver the sound of an unamplified instrument or voice naturally,+ it should do everything else well, and that listening to a raunchy Les Paul cranked through an overdriven Marshall amp is not revealing of the the system's ability to deliver the 'nuances.'
    Good as far as it goes- if it is true that the same 'refined and nuanced' system can deliver reggae, or steel drum or proto-heavy metal music with the same level of realism that is claimed for a solo cello. (I like Janos Starker and Jacqueline Du Pre so I'm just as likely to play a cello piece as Living Colour, or early Zep).
    And here's the dirty little secret: it's not a question of voicing or deliberate design slant to make the stuff better on 'acoustic' music: it's more likely that a lot of systems that can do 'refined' simply cannot deliver the dynamics and scale necessary for bone-crushing music. I don't think it is a tin-foil hat conspiracy behind this, but a question of amplifier power, speaker efficiency, size and complexity. Those really inefficient dynamic speakers, electrostats* and (relative high-end bargain) Maggies need mucho amp power to play loud, are not necessarily the best at 'jump factor' (the ability to go from 0 -100 in the blink of an eye); you need big woofers and subwoofers; the little mini-monitors, no matter how much they disappear for soundstaging, just can't produce the slam and power of a bigger speaker system (even with an added smallish subwoofer system).
    So, many of these systems get played to their strengths- tone, soundstage/imaging and coherence. (Once you start adding multiple drivers, I think all hell breaks loose on the coherence front- it's not very easy, or necessarily cost-effective to get those big multi-driver speakers to play both extremes of music- from chamber music to hard rock- without some serious engineering/cost. That's why, I think, many listeners like the retro speakers, such a Tannoy, or horns, which are coherent but also efficient and capable of both coherence and dynamics). I know I'm making a gross generalization here, and I'm sure a few folks will poke a fork in this thesis, but in my experience, you can't listen to Bad Brains believably on a pair of Quad electrostats (much as I love the old ones); horns and Tannoys and the like are not the mainstream in high-end hi-fi (isn't that stuff from before the flood?) and cost-effectiveness starts to become a hurdle when you need big amps of some quality to drive large, full range (and often relatively inefficient) speakers to the levels necessary to sound realistic on hard rock and other 'non-acoustic' music.

    ______
    +One of the other false premises is that these 'female voice with jazz combo' records are 'natural' productions- though that Shelby Lynne record of Dusty covers may be one of the best produced records I've ever heard, it is clearly very 'produced.' That's a whole other issue, but worth noting that the 'benchmark' for a 'natural' sounding record is probably far from 'natural.'

    *Not so much amp power, but stability and to produce deep bass, you need a huge panel surface or augmentation with dynamic woofers, not as easy to make coherent mixing stats with dynamic woofs, additional amplifiers for the woofers, etc. And electrostats just don't do 'jump' as well in my experience, much as I love them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
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  7. kfringe

    kfringe Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Oregon Coast
    "No replacement for displacement."
     
  8. Henry Please

    Henry Please Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa City
    I was kidding. That's how the kids say it. It was a joke. This is the second time in the same thread. But thanks for taking the time to add something productive to the discussion.
     
  9. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    I have to say I disagree strongly with both diagnoses of the "problem."

    The first one seems to be just about your own personal biases -- maybe YOU like indie rockers or something, but the mass market clearly likes Miley Cyrus more. If you really want to turn more people, in particularly more young people, on to hifi why not use Miley Cyrus or Ariana Grande or MAGIC! or Sam Smith or Meghan Trainor, you know, the most popular music in America?

    If the problem with young people and hifi is that the demo music is not their favorite music, why not go for the biggest potential market by focusing on using the most popular music?

    Personally I don't think the demo music is such a big issue for attracting new people into the hobby, certainly not at a hifi show where all the attendees are already in the market, maybe at a hifi showroom. I would think a smart sales person in the latter case would first ask any individual demoing a component for sale, "What music do you like?" and demo using that -- whether it's Miley Cyrus, Diana Krall or Slipknot. And what about the buyers that manufacturers know exist -- old though they may be, but willing to spend $50K on speaker -- who DON'T want to hear Jack White or Grouplove at the hifi show? I don't think indie rock is any more likely to make people care about high fidelity home reproduction of recorded music than classical or jazz or flamenco or hip-hop or Bulgarian folk music. People who care about quality home reproduction of recorded music and want to buy a dedicated home hifi rig are inevitably going to be a small subset of the fans of any of these sorts of music. So, small subsets of subsets. I don't think there's this enormous nascent market for hifi reproduction out there that dumb manufacturers and marketers are missing out on. The huge market is Apple's market for Beats and iPods, midsized for AudioEngine and Emotiva, miniscule for mbl or Wilson audio.

    The second one shouldn't be an issue at all. A hifi system -- that is a high fidelity reproduction system devoted to accurately reproducing the input signal -- ought to just reveal how good or bad the source recording is. A good accurate hifi system -- one with sufficient power and scale for a Mahler symphony -- will have no problem reproducing Arcade Fire or Godsmack or Wiz Khalifa. Yeah, you can put together a lower powered, small speaker based system that might be clearly better for the music of Diana Krall or Gillian Welch than 808-heavy hip hop or something. But a great full range system ought to be able to play any kind of music well. Whether or not the modern music is recorded well in the first place is another matter, and I think a bigger factor in declining interest in hifi than one might think. If you like the sound of 128kps MP3s of music that's been squashed to 3 dB of dynamic range and boosted to the point were the waveform almost looks like a square wave or something, not only does accurate reproduction of that not necessarily make it sound "better" but probably recordings with wide dynamic range, and less hashy timbres, sound old fashioned and dull to you. The aesthetic of modern music is, in many ways, the opposite of the high fidelity aesthetic.
     
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  10. csampson

    csampson Forum Resident

    Perhaps external factors such as new socio-economic norms and technologies have more to do with the fate of traditional hi-fi and it doesn’t really matter what type of music is played at the trade shows or anything else that the participants in the hi-fi market do because these external factors which they cannot control are much stronger than their market.

    Music listening for pure enjoyment sake now competes for a slice of time with many other alternatives that didn’t exist 25 years ago plus longer commutes and longer working hours leaves less leisure time at home. It becomes harder to justify spending larger amounts of money for activities that have less time to enjoy.

    Stagnant wages for people below the highest earning tiers of society has resulted in less disposable income to spend on items such as hi-fi systems for a large segment of the population.

    Portable music players along with miniaturized amps and new advanced headphone designs have resulted in a very pleasurable listening experience for many at a very low price point compared to a traditional hi-fi system. As a bonus you can listen to these while you are at work or riding the train during your long commute.

    50 or 60 year olds arguing today about how to best educate the masses so they are knowledgeable enough to purchase their gear has about much a chance of success as 50 or 60 year olds from the turn of the last century doing the same to justify the ongoing sales of their music boxes and player pianos in the face of those newfangled records that just came out and are eating into their business revenue.

    Today’s society has decided that a living room full of costly hi-fi equipment just isn’t important given where things are today thus relegating the industry to fight over a much narrower niche of customers than was the case during the good old days, Diana Krall or not.
     
  11. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I'm generally with you, Chervokas, that a hi-fi system should be fidelitous* to all genres. And I guess you are stretching the point Brian made to an extreme to suggest that if the manufacturers and vendors should account for indie-rock, etc., why not recognize mass market music of the moment? Granted, some of that stuff is highly compressed, dynamically, but a lot of the classic rock and pop from the 60's and 70's used compression too. (Maybe a question of degree, rather than everything being at '11'). I suspect that the folks that have enough money to buy decent gear, beyond a set of Beats over an iPhone, whether it is higher end headphones/DAC/amp or a system meant for loudspeakers in a room have their own groove, musically, and it isn't necessarily mass market music of the moment (I'll call this 'MMMOTM' and request that further use of the term credit me :) ). I actually get a big kick out of playing stuff you generally only heard on the radio - Crystal Gayle- 'Don't it Make My Brown Eyes Blue'; Alice Cooper- 'I'm Eighteen'; Warren Zevon- 'Werewolves of London,' Stealers Wheel 'Stuck in the Middle,' etc. All actually sound fabulous, at least with the right pressings. Even Green Day and Red Hot Chili Peppers, which are heavily compressed in the modern way, sound pretty damn good. But, a lot of this stuff really needs the ability to produce scale and dynamics, such as they are on the recordings. And I think that's hard to do with inefficient speakers without spending some serious money.



    ___________
    *Thanks to Burt for that word.
     
  12. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Overstating for purposes of argument, but only a little. I mean if the reasoning is that hifi needs to use music popular with most people, and in particular younger people, to convert audiences, then it follows that the most popular music is the best demo music for that purpose. If that doesn't follow, then it calls into question the entire premise that using more popular music = more interest in hifi.

    I like all that kind of music so I listen to Taylor Swift and Ed Sheeran and Pink and I listen to Schoenberg and Varese and Beethoven and Ravel and I listen to Sonny Rollins and Ornette Coleman and I listen to Brad Paisley and Miranda Lambert and I listen to Tinariwen and Kiran Ahluwalia and I listen to Sinatra and Sarah Vaughan and I listen to lots of non-hifi recordings of the '20s and '30s like Louis Armstrong or Charlie Poole or Dock Boggs or Arizona Dranes, and I listen to a little alt rock (I like the Hold Steady, Delta Spirit, I keep up with what Arcade Fire is doing) so I don't much care at a personal level what you demo with a) I can listen for the character of the sound and the frequency response and dynamics with any kind of music; and b) there's something I like and am familiar with in just about any genre of music I'm likely to encounter (not a big fan of bossa nova). But that's just my personal taste.
     
  13. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Funny thing... since you turned me on to DeVore and other similar speakers, I've found that I'm really gravitating toward high efficiency speakers with big woofers. I heard Tannoy's at the show and really enjoyed them. Heard another horn speaker and liked that as well. And then the stuff I heard recently in Russia.

    I guess I'm a sucker for "jump factor" in a system. :)
     
  14. btf1980

    btf1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Indeed. I hope I didn't come across as surly. There are many fine gents who get it. Some on this forum who host get togethers and such as well.
     
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  15. btf1980

    btf1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    I'm already an old dude to my nieces. There's only so much I can take when it comes discussions about One Direction. :cheers:
     
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  16. TimArruda

    TimArruda Well-Known Member

    Location:
    St. Petersburg, FL
    LOL Funny you say that, I never even stopped to think of it in that way. It seems it's always a matter of perspective. And I very quickly looked into the Afropunk festival. Are Sharon Jones & The Dap-Kings considered Afropunk? If so, I guess I'm not so out of touch after all because I love them.
     
  17. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    That's a dangerous path to head down, there is no going back once you're a junkie ;)

    Munich is the show to go for the lunatic fringe of the high end. You need to experience a full blown Cessaro system, though it has its faults it will give you a taste of what an entirely horn loaded system can do that none other can.
     
  18. btf1980

    btf1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Despite the moniker, Afropunk doesn't just mean punk music. It's essentially Black music that falls outside of mainstream culture. Jones might be known and might even appear on a late night show or two, but they won't be playing her music on mtv or vh1, or on the radio anytime soon.
     
  19. TimArruda

    TimArruda Well-Known Member

    Location:
    St. Petersburg, FL
    And that is truly unfortunate, people are really missing out there. I love her voice and their sound.
     
  20. cwsiggy

    cwsiggy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vero Beach, FL
    I thought it was interesting when I pulled up to Double Decker records in Allentown, PA last week after having not been there in about 6-7 months that there is now a hi fi store in the room next door where they used to put their .50 vinyl in. I was almost in a panic thinking Double Decker closed!

    Pretty nice place - good gear - Rogue, Cambridge Audio, Pro-Ject, VPI, Sonus Faber, Harbeth and Wharfedale among a few others.

    Guy decided to open up a store and give it a go. Not sure if it's a partnership with Double Decker or if Double Decker simply decided to move their records in the back and he cut a deal with the landlord... regardless, had a nice chat with owner. They had a Rogue event there a couple weeks ago. I wish them the best and we'll see how long they last. - looks like he's trying to target the mid level high fi price point... but he has all price points covered. Who knows - maybe I'll buy a Chronus Integrated from them someday...
     
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  21. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    The Cure's "Disintegration" and Plainsong are a tricky choice to use to audition. The mixing and mastering are weird. There's a lot to the sound that is out of phase. If you sum it to mono much of the music disappears. Just gone. The music dies. It's also one of the few albums that actually sounds very noticeably worse when engaging headphone crossfeed. There is something really wonky in the way it is mixed and mastered and the way they have played with phase to get the effect they ended up with. The type of sound they ended up with is something that doesn't seem to play well with good tube gear or gear that is really good at bringing out the subtle details like reverb tails and ambiance. It almost seems like the better the gear is at bringing out reverb tails and ambiance the worse the album sounds. I wonder what gear they had in the mastering studio when mastering the album?

    I do love the album and the music. But it's been a world of disappointment on various setups for listening. I wouldn't use it to audition or evaluate gear unless you really really understand what it is about the sound that does what it does (I don't understand why the sound is as it is).

    The version of the album I have is the CD from 1989. Haven't listened to the remaster. Or the LP. But I have a strange suspicion that the loudnessed remaster might sound better on high end gear than the 1989 CD. Just because the sound of the 1989 CD is so wonky and sounds so wimpy on some some otherwise very good systems.
     
  22. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    That's what has bothered me about using Diana Krall for evaluating gear. All I hear when I hear her recordings are female vocals in a microphone. It's like listening to a microphone. Is the purpose of the listening exercise to evaluate the sound of the microphones used?
     
  23. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    What I hear is a woman singing and playing piano in my family room. I don't hear microphones.
     
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  24. kman

    kman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indiana
    When I was a teenager in the 70's there was no computers, smartphones, or digital music.
    The only cool technology that we had was stereo equipment, it was our technology playground and we of course played vinyl lp records. We were told by our elders that we would have computers and flying cars --- just like the tv show the Jetsons. What we got was Microsoft windows and cheap Japanese cars that rusted.
    Now fast forward to today ---- teenagers have smartphones and mp3 digital music, they don't want or need expensive stereo stuff. My own kids don't want it. Twice I have offered my youngest child a stereo setup in her bedroom, the answer is always "why" ---- I have my headphones.

    When I read this thread I sometimes wonder what universe these folks are in
    Times have changed ---- will I still play with my stereo?
    Hell yes I will
    Will my children --- probably not
    Will the under 30 crowd that's listening to vinyl be doing that in 10 years ??? I don't have a clue if they will or if it's only fad and will burn out like the other fads have ( remember Earth Shoes --- and no I did not ever own a pair ) but I did have bellbottom jeans back then

    For some of us who wish for the old days of stereo hi Fi shops all over town --- those days are long gone and they ain't coming back

    Now I am off to go find that flying Jetsons car that my old man used to talk about ( I heard that the car has built in wifi, Bluetooth, drives by itself and has a built in snack dispenser )
     
  25. Brudy

    Brudy Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland
    You're hanging out with the wrong people then :p
     
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