Has the vinyl resurgence led to increased sales in the HiFi industry?

I guess it's safe to say it's not affordable to a small percent of the population.

 

It's about priorities now, I know many people who earn £100k+ who wouldn't dream of spending more than £399 on an audio system.

Really it should be £1200-£1400 when I think about it, nearer the average monthly net salary.

An entry level Linn system 10 years ago was £2.5k, now it must be nearer £6k or £7k

 

[QUOTE="Brian Gupton, post: ..
It's natural. These guys are, let's be honest, too old to learn new tricks (Rega guy is the exception). They aren't really innovating in HiFi anymore, just tweaking the kinds of products they've been building for the last 40 years for a shrinking market segment.

[/QUOTE]
Seriously? After 40 and you might as well close the lid on the box? I certainly didn't think that way about older people when I was in my early 20's or so. I respected experience. I also respect people who can innovate and you either have it or don't, regardless of age. There just aren't that many to go around. I worked with a guy who was in his 70's and still a brilliant, innovative physicist. I work with people in their 20's as well. If they weren't too busy looking for constant affirmation, playing pranks, or engaging in verbal masturbation they just might get something accomplished. Your viewpoint is narrow minded and shows a lack of insight and knowledge.

 

Great point. I included that as part of my budget this go around and happy I did, even if I am pretty much in a near-field listening position. No way I could listen to my music at high volume in the little 11' x 15' room if I hadn't. That said, I seriously doubt you could convince anyone to spend 95% of their budget on room treatments. You can achieve a lot with minimum investment in many rooms with a good set up.

 

Very true. 95% is not necessary of course. But it should always be addressed if possible. Such a big difference.

 

Seriously? After 40 and you might as well close the lid on the box? I certainly didn't think that way about older people when I was in my early 20's or so. I respected experience. I also respect people who can innovate and you either have it or don't, regardless of age. There just aren't that many to go around. I worked with a guy who was in his 70's and still a brilliant, innovative physicist. I work with people in their 20's as well. If they weren't too busy looking for constant affirmation, playing pranks, or engaging in verbal masturbation they just might get something accomplished. Your viewpoint is narrow minded and shows a lack of insight and knowledge.[/QUOTE]


I wasn't referencing people in their 40's. Nor was I referencing people in their 50's, 60's or 70's for that matter.

I was referencing the specific people in that video who were clearly clueless about attracting a new audience. As you can see in my words that you quoted, my point was that these guys don't seem to think that the issue is their failure to innovate around what consumers are demanding.

They spend the entire hour+ lamenting how today's consumer just doesn't get it and hasn't had a chance to hear good HiFi. "If only they could hear what good music sounds like. Maybe if we build listening rooms on college campuses." That's basically what most of them think is the solution. That and better sales people.

I've asserted that the issue is this old guard (most of whom are actually 60+) ARE too old to really get it and I base that off what they actually say, not just that they are a certain age. They are too far removed from the next wave of potential HiFi fans to truly understand the new market realities. I base that off what they say, not just how old they are. Again, the Rega guy gets it. The others? Not so much.

They aren't saying, "Hey, we need to be more innovative by delivering HiFi experiences that are portable and deal with the fact of today's overly compressed digital files." They think the market should come back to them. That's clueless. Even if they understand this on an intellectual level, it's clear to me and others who have watched the video that they do not get it on an emotional level. Longing for the good ole days is not a very good strategy.

I've also tried to show specific examples of where this group of people fail to understand or appeal to younger generations with different sensibilities than themselves. Others have also brought specific examples. If you think anyone who questions this old school way of thinking is "narrow minded" and lacking insight and knowledge, that's certainly your right.

Just curious... did you even watch the whole video before making your comment?

 

Headphones don't need room treatment.

But they may benefit from head treatment. For example a hair cut or a change in hair style if excess hair causes leaks around the pads, which can affect the sound quality of certain headphones. Or if you wear glasses to ditch the glasses while listening, or opt for contacts or LASIK.

 

Hilarious!

 

The straightforward move would be to clone the LP12 and sell it much cheaper. Ivor could do nothing inasmuch as that's what HE did with another product.

I would improve it by copying the Cirkus bearing but fixing the other inherent issues with this table: the suspension is all spring and no damping, like a car with no shock absorbers (which Brits correctly call dampers!), and the driven member has no speed control or metering. Machine a tonewheel on the inner platter and use an inexpensive coil sensor (a 1973 Chrysler ignition part works perfectly) to provide speed reference.

 

Interviewing my best friend about all of this now. He is a HUGE music fan. I asked him why, as such a huge music fan who has easily attended 500+ concerts (he is a Phish Head) and has the money to afford a high end setup, he hasn't invested in better listening equipment. Here's what he's saying:

• "I'm really happy with the quality of sound I'm getting from the AudioEngine A5 speakers you suggested. I might add one of those adapters you mentioned (he's referring to a DAC) and get some better headphones, but what's the point of spending more." I dug in a bit more, asking why he doesn't think he'd get better sound with better speakers...
• "I don't know. It just seems like the difference between a $500 speaker and a $1,000 speaker isn't going to be much. These say they are for HiFi and they seem really good."
• "There's no way to really prove that one speaker is better than another. How would you measure it? If they could show me that it's better, maybe I'd want to upgrade."
• He started saying something about adding more power, but it was clear he didn't really understand the value of amps / pre-amps or really even understand what they do.
• "Also, really depends on the size of the room. I have a small apartment, so what's the point of big speakers. Plus I can move these A5's from room-to-room in a few seconds. I can even take them outside. And they plug right into my computer."

So basically, his perception is that his current setup sounds really good (I've said before that those A5's sound pretty darn good). He hasn't heard my current system yet since he's been living in Moscow. He's coming back to the states in a few weeks and will be staying in my listening room, so we'll have to see if I can convert him.

But it sounds like he just doesn't want much more from him music even though he is a huge music fan. He's not educated on the options and thinks that because the A5's seem marketed as HiFi that bigger speakers won't necessarily be better. He'd rather spend his money going to see live music.

We're getting ready to hop on a train for 4 hours, so I'll ask him more and report back. I think it's interesting to ask people these questions to see where their thinking is really at. One thing that's apparent is that non-audiophiles seem to depend on the advice of friends who no more that they do quite a bit. No surprise there. My buddy doesn't trust dealers at all.

 

You can't logic someone in to accepting that there can be better sound quality that will enhance their music listening enjoyment. You can only let them experience it over several days or more and hope things click.

 

I don't know. I just explained compression to him. He thought it was like zipping a file to make it smaller. Once I explained what happens to the dynamic range, he understood. You're right though, hearing is believing.

 

You can use logic to explain how things like limiting and dynamic range compression result it bad sound and the loudness war.

It's very different to try to use logic to explain how better stereo equipment or headphone equipment can play music in a way that is more emotionally rewarding or pleasant to listen to. The only way to explain that is to let them experience it for several days or weeks or more. And hope it clicks and results in an "ah ha" I get it. It also takes time to learn or adapt how to actually listen. It's easy to think you ought to be listening to things like frequency response. Is the treble details and crisp (yuck, I don't like crisp treble)? Bass going down low? Is the midrange clear? It's another level to come to listen to things like space, soundstage depth, layers in music, etc. It takes time to discover that the other level of listening exists and it's that other level where the magic is and where the emotion in a recording can hide.

 

My hifi dealer, Brady's near Warrington UK, tells me that their vinyl related sales have been growing year on year recently and they are considering selling records if they can find the right supplier. They do say though that a lot of their sales are upgrades or replacements. They also sell a lot of digital related gear but CD related gear has slumped.

 

One other really big indicator that most of these companies don't understand how to market to people under 40... take a look at most manufacturer and dealer websites. Almost all of them look like they were made in 1995.

The first thing I do when I hear about some equipment/dealer is check them out online. These guys are selling expensive gear, but their websites do not showcase this or make me aspire to own their stuff. Frankly, they don't even inspire trust.

And there's really no excuse for this, especially since they only need static websites for the most part. You can get a top notch custom site built for WAY under $2K. And there are Wordpress themes that make it easy for any novice to implement an updated site in a few days. If they want to sell online, there are similar eCommerce templates that can give them a modern design with all the backend functionality at minimum cost and effort.

The fact that these brands/dealers don't make the effort to do this minimum effort really shows that they are clueless on how to market to anyone under 40.

 

Too many pages to go through, hope I'm not being repetitive here. As I understand it, the tables that are selling well (for this market) are the Project/Music Hall, U-Turn, and Rega entry level tables. But even these are very small numbers and require either an online purchase or (in many cases) travelling a distance to a B&M store. And if they break a needle or need a new cart, well that requires a trip to someone that can install/set one up. Not many will take the time/expense to learn how to install or purchase the tools needed. I don't believe that 1/2" mount carts are the way to bring tables to the masses. It's all just too complicated for the novice/occasional spinner.
What I am about to say may sound like heresy on this forum.......but P-Mounts are, I believe, the way to go. Much better, IMO, than a fixed type of head shell set up that can only except one stylus. While the P-Mount cart options are very limited now, there used to be nice ones made - even some LOMC. Simple to install (one screw), no counter wight adjustments, a real plug and play piece! Put in a on/off switchable preamp and the ability to plug it into whatever they use for I-Pod playback, two speeds, and at least an auto lift/off at the end of the record and possibly a bubble level and present it at an attractive price. Is that too much to ask? It can even be mostly plastic, it would just need to be better than what Crosley offers, something that would not damage the vinyl and be almost CD player simple. Anyhoo.............rock on!

 

I really don't think it's a marketing problem. I think it's a demand problem.

Most people just don't value the kinds of audio improvement that mean the world to us, even big music fans and definitely not most music listeners who are casual listeners.

There's no nascent audience for high quality audio out there -- at any age -- that would embrace the stuff if only they heard it. Sometimes if you even play the hifi for someone it they don't think it sounds better than a boombox, and even if they do, it's not important enough to them to devote money and space to it. And, as discussed in this thread, there are so many entertainment substitutes available now, fewer and fewer people sit down and do nothing but listen to music anything; and the money and mindshare that used to be spent by young people buying their first stereos is now spend on smart phones, tablets and laptops. (35 years ago, when a middle class kid graduated from high school, or had a bar mitzvah or something, they might buy or be given a stereo, it would be one of the first things they though of, now it will be a tablet, phone, computer or game system). No amount of marketing is going to change that. High end audio always was and always will be a small niche market. The problem is that now its a small niche within a universe of shrinking consumer interest in dedicated, audio-only equipment generally. I'm not sure today's 18-24 year old are every coming to dedicated home audio systems anymore than they're going to install landlines or cable TV in their homes. Consumer behavior has just changed.

 

I got my aunt a similar type turntable with P Mount and auto return. By the 2000s they weren't that easy to find new. There is no way she could have futzed with even a Project. Your thoughts are perfectly sound. We keep coming back to the same issue that the OP started off with: the Hifi industry does zero market research or even remembers recent history. Back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s the masses had record players and tubed components, so things can be made that even novices can deal with. The problem is that the major companies don't want to get involved with it now and the niche audiophile firms can't bring themselves to make true entry level gear any more than Ferrari could lower themselves to build a van.

 

Trim the ear hair!

 

Bill, even for the audiophile like myself, the experience of visiting my local Hi-Fi store was, sadly, intimidating and stressful. I hope you weren't like that, but many audio stores shot themselves in the foot by having an elitist attitude toward the average Joe coming through the door. We've all heard and read the stories before. "You need to make an appointment." Wow. Goodbye. It should have been "Let me kiss your ass so much, dear potential customer, that you'll need a roll of paper towels to dry it." Give people a reason NEVER to go online to buy a product. Offer the newbie a chance to stain his drawers by letting him listen to the best system in the house, just to give 'em an idea of what a top-notch system was/is capable of. Sadly, many stores did not. Hence, the few audiophiles that actually care about high end equipment drifted to online centers. There, people were able to try out stuff in the comfort of their home, without being made to feel like they needed to go down the street to Walmart because they don't make enough money to enter the Holier than thou audio salon. Combine that with the portability factor of the Iphone and, yes, sales in Hi-Fi shops still are not experiencing a resurgence similar to the upswing in vinyl sales.

 

Interesting thread, btw!

 

I have not found this to be the case.

Most people have absolutely no idea what's possible with hifi audio, and when they hear my system most of my friends do appreciate it and many of them ask for advice on what to get for their own systems.

IMO, the issue IS marketing to a large extent, as a great majority of people have no idea what even exists and what the possibilities are. As I said, you can't want something if you don't even know it exists.

 

I've had Audioengine A5s in my home office for about 7 years. Moving up to $1000-2000 / pair active monitors has been on my radar for years but the A5s sound good and there is always some other thing to spend money on.

Audiophiles seem to have trouble truly accepting that good sound is only one of many desirable things for most people. We talk about them as though they are sad, misguided people in need of enlightenment.

 

Your experience and my experience differ. No 20 somethings I know have an interest in high end audio even if they've been exposed to it and even many 40 and 50 somethings I know who absolutely know good sound when they hear it -- musicians, former audio engineers -- have no interest in spending money on or devoting room to it. Some have even gone away from higher end stuff in favor of convenient in wall systems. Though all will spend money on big screen high def TV as well as the latest tablets and computers. It's just my circle if friends and family and coworkers of course. But I see a profound lack of interest.

 

What very few audiophile types seem to understand is that most people care more about the music itself and not the system it's reproduced on. As long as the sound is decent to them all this talk about if only they heard a great system is wishful thinking. I've been involved with sound, one way or the other, for almost 50 years and my tagline here is my philosophy - Listen more, analyze less. My listening systems are good and provide pleasing reproduction of the music I listen to. Could I spend more time and effort (and $$$) to get an incredible system? Of course, but I just don't care enough to devote $10k or more to do that. I like what I hear with what I've put together and I think that's most people these days.

I was in Target yesterday and wandered through the Electronics department. Loaded with Bose, Dr. Dre, and a variety of Bluetooth speakers. That's the future of audio, not the traditional component system. I agree that there will always be a niche market for higher end audio but it will shrink further as people who grew up on component audio age and die off. Vinyl will have pretty much zero to do with anything.