HCFCs for cleaning records?

Has anyone else tried HCFCs to clean records? I got the idea when Humorem said he used Freon on records with great success. The HCFC has nearly identical properties to the CFC Freon. I've never heard a cleaner LP surface!

It even helps clean that "record shumz" covered in an earlier thread. Not the visible damage, but some of the goop in the grooves (very noisy). I have a mint Thelonious Monk LP on Columbia that was too darn noisy to enjoy (sleeve damage), and the HCFC cleaned it to near quiet. And this LP is cut at super low level (32 minutes on side A), so this made a huge difference. I'm so confident in this stuff (after many tests), I've also used it on some very collectible vinyl (German MMT, mint "Another Side.." Dylan orig LP, Neil Young On The Beach). Every single one has improved after the treatment. The MMT in particular is nearly whisper quiet even with headphones, apart from a couple small clicks on one track.

 

Interesting. What are HCFCs? I'm assuming the CFC part refers to chloroflourocarbons, right? Is the "H" hydrogen? What's the scoop?

 

What exactly IS HCFC?

 

HCFC is short for hydrochloroflourocarbon.

I forget what the particular chemical name is, but the brand I've used is marketed for cleaning PC boards/switches without residue, and is just HCFC with CO2 propellant. It's called GC Electronics Component Wash. It used to be called Super Kleen NA. Other similar products often contain Ethanol, and I haven't used these.

It's not cheap to use because it evaporates VERY rapidly. A 22 oz aerosol can of this stuff only cleans 6-7 records thoroughly, though there's probably a better way to apply it. It costs about $11 a can, so I've only used it on problematic or noisy records which I felt were probably noisy due to contamination (like the ones with clear sleeves). There are some nicotine coated records I'm hoping to get to tonight - some decent Living Stereos among them. I use a low-lint cotton rag sprayed wet with the HCFC (again, you need a lot of fluid to make a cleaning pass), and let the LP spin under the rag on my VPI. Then you could probably just carbon brush the LP and go, but I clean with a standard homebrew fluid (mostly distilled water with a little 100% pure isopropyl) and vacuum dry. It cuts down on the static at that stage, mostly (I don't have a Zerostat). The results have been amazing!

I would highly recommend not spraying the HCFC directly on records. It freezes anything it contacts. You'd probably do well with a brush or rag that can take a saturation of fluid, since a light spray will immediately evaporate. I have had no problems with this stuff, though I'd keep it away from polystyrenes or any other non-standard "vinyl" compounds.

 

I know what you're talking about now. So that stuff will cut through the crap that leaches out of some of the older poly-lined inner sleeves, eh? I've got a Grateful Dead "Blues For Allah" like that right now. I'll have to give it a try. Thanks for the tip, pal.

 

You bet. I've got that one too! This could be the reason it's not seen the light of day for years.. I'll have to check it out. Like I said, the records I tried it on (especially the Monk) were much quieter after a treatment. FWIW, a second treatment offered no further improvement (I was very thorough the first time around). I've got a mint Miles ESP in mono with one of those blasted sleeves. I'll probably try that one soon, and we'll see if it gets quieter too.

If you try this, let me know how it goes!

PS: Cold vinyl=brittle vinyl. Be very careful....

 

Just to confirm, the way you're doing it is to spray the cloth or cleaning pad to the point of saturation, right?

 

Exactly. And before you know it, it's all gone...

 

Cool. I guess fast work is the key, then. Probably not the ideal stuff to be using on vinyl, but it sounds like a nice trick to have up your sleeve for the occasional problem disc. That leached plastic stuff is a bear to get off.

 

Right, I would reserve this for discs that haven't responded to anything else, and you still think might be salvaged. I've had success with other discs not in those clear sleeves. For instance, I have a copy of Neil Young Tonight's The Night which was loaded with clicks and looks near mint. The HCFC got rid of a good 50% of the clicks, and quieted many of the remaining ones.

 

Are we talking ozone layer harming stuff?

 

I don't believe Nitty Gritty "First" was HCFC [hmmm. Maybe it was] but it evaporated quickly and was pulled off the market like 8 years ago because of environmental issues. Worked great with "garage sale" records that were particularly cruddy.

 

Hi Mike,

It sounds like you are on to something. My TT needs work before I can try this out for myself but a few of my records are incorrigibly dirty so this could do the trick.

John

 

FWIW, a good hit of Disc Doctor fluid seems to take care of practically everything, except that really stubborn plastic inner sleeve leaching. I picked up an Allsop Orbitrac ($40) based on a Michael Fremer recommendation for pre-cleaning dirtier records before hitting 'em with the Disc Doctor. Pretty good idea, actually. That way, the nastier cases aren't quite so nasty by the time you put your good record cleaning brushes on 'em.

 

Ron: this must have been the "mystery fluid" I've been trying to identify for the past few years. I've had a record vacuum for many years, and it shipped with a large jug of cleaning solution and a small bottle of a Nitty Gritty cleaner. The name "First" does sound familiar! A shame they had to pull it from the market. That was the only cleaner I had found that would remove that film from bad plastic innersleeves, and *really* deep cleaned the LP before I finished it up with the regular cleaner.

The HCFC sounds a bit dangerous, but the fumes might make me "happy", so to speak. This reminds me of something similar I picked up at my last job. We were an industrial distributor, and one line we sold was LPS, which are a line of industrial cleaners and lubricants. One product line includes electrical contact cleaners. This is the one I have downstairs:

http://www.lpslabs.com/Products/Cleaners/CFCFree.asp

It is called CFC-Free Contact Cleaner. It, too, evaporates very quickly. I do notice that they sell this in a gallon size (non-aerosol). It also claims to be safe on plastic and rubber. (Which to me would make me think it *might* be safer for vinyl.) It claims to leave no residue as well.

I tried this stuff on a noisy volume control on an old boombox. It cleaned up the control, but also made it a little rough. (It cleaned up the dust and oxidation, but probably also got rid of any lubricant in there!) They do have other contact cleaners, but they don't seem to be as kind to plastics.

I guess I need to find a couple of those dollar LPs that are noisy, and try to clean them with this stuff.

 

I remember having quite a bid of success with "First" and bought I believe a one or two quart size bottle [it was quite expensive]. Used it sparingly but it only lasted maybe 4-5 months as although the bottle was sealed tightly between usage, it would nevertheless evaporate. Oh well.

 

I was wondering that too. HCFCs were formulated, I believe, to make them more environmentally safe than CFCs like Freon. I'm not sure if HCFCs are entirely benign though. As for health hazards, the fumes could be a problem if you don't have decent ventilation, but this appears to be from displacement of air vs. any chemical toxicity (according to a couple websites I skimmed).

I tried this stuff again last night on a Fleetwood Mac Rumours LP, an early US press. Gold Dust Woman had a fair number of ticks on it, and now they're all gone. I love it! It's a great sounding record by the way.

 

Rudy,

On the same site you linked to, there is a spray called PSC Plastic Safe Cleaner. The main ingredient (1,1 Dichloro 1 Fluoroethane) is the same as the GC Electronics spray I've been using. It looks like it's also known as HCFC 141b. Read the MSDS - it looks to be not terribly toxic, unless you work around it all the time. Pure HCFC 141b is also not flammable.

 

I never tried that one, but I think the only drawback is that if I were to buy it, I'd have to get aerosol. With the other, I have an option to get it as aerosol (the smallest size) or go up to the 1 gal. and get it as a liquid. I did notice that the CFC-Free is also safe on plastic, but just a wee bit more flammable. I just wonder which of the two is safER to vinyl than the other. Although the name is quite obviously a giveaway in that department. ;-)

However, since the PSC is marketed as "plastic safe" and your GC Electronics is the same basic ingredient, I feel a lot better about trying something like that on vinyl. Hmmm...we just may be onto something before the audiophile press finds out about it.

That Nitty Gritty "First" that I used to have (and which I used up!) was able to rescue those LPs of mine where the "gummy" plastic sleeves had gummed up the vinyl. One was an imported A&M (Deutches Gramaphone pressing...normally *very* quiet) that I bought used and virtually unplayed...but that plastic sleeve was stuck to it. The LP was terrible! I just groaned. The LP was only $5, but I'd never seen a used copy of this one in at least a decade, and it was an import to boot. Argh!! Cleaned it with the "First" cleaner, perhaps twice, then followed it up with a regular cleaning. Smoooooth and quiet now!

If I were reading this thread two years ago, I'd have been able to call up LPS Labs to find out more about these two sprays. Too bad the PSC doesn't come in a 1-gallon non-aerosol.

 

Hmm. I've been reading more into HCFC 141b, and its production is being phased out as it does have ozone depleting qualities (though less than Freon CFC). Other compounds are being developed without any environmental hazard (Vertrel? from DuPont). This looks more promising long term. I plan to find some of this and do some more experimenting.

Rudy - excellent story about the DG disc! I felt the same way once the Monk LP was cleaned. What a revelation. I'm going to scour some LP racks (probably classical) for badly scummed up discs & see how this stuff performs on the nastiest stuff I can throw at it

 

I wonder if HCFC 141b is the same stuff used in those air horns people buy for boating and use at football games, etc.? What Mike was referring to is basically sold for blowing off keyboards and things like that, but I think the air horns are the same thing, just with a horn attached to create noise from the release of the compressed contents.

FWIW, I've never actually had poly-lined sleeves stick to records...they've just leached a bit. Sticking really would be disconcerting.

 

No chemical degree here, but I wonder if the HCFC or CFC would just be the propellant?

Yes, it IS disconcerting to find a sleeve stuck to an LP! I only wonder what condition it was stored under to cause that. Likely heat and/or humidity.

 

Actually, those "compressed air" cans might contain HCFC, but not in significant quantity. I found this stuff at an electronics supply shop. I've not seen it anywhere else (Home Depot has a version of same, but with additional ingredients almost like Rudy described). It sprays like aerosol and is very wet (and don't get it directly on your skin, as it will freeze you!). Again, pure HCFC is the sole ingredient, and CO2 (carbon dioxide) acts as propellant. I'm sure it's available in a bulk, non-aerosol form somewhere, but I haven't really looked into that.

 

I THINK in both cases it's just a propellant...but I was a Business major.

I mean, they're both meant to just blow air through the released propulsion, but if you concentrate it in one area long enough, it'll create condensation from the temperature variation between it (the cold propellant) and the room temperature environment. Once the room temperature brings up the temperature of the expelled propellant, it evaportates...or at least that's what I think is going on!

The cool liquid propellant changes to a gas at a higher temperature.

 

Ah, CO2...just saw your post, Mike.