HDCD Hardware and Software

Okay, another thread got me thinking that I need to ask this question.
If the Gorts feel this has been covered feel free to delete this thread.
What it concerns is the recent releases of AF's Gold CDs are HDCDs.
After reading an article in an old Stereophile coupled with a remark by SH recently that He felt HDCD in the past did not sound like the master tape and someone's remark that SH now has a custom built A/D processor that uses HDCD
...and if all this is true then...
Does the individual who then does not have a HDCD player lose out on the potential benefit of HDCD encoding on these discs from AF?

 

According to Steve, no.

 

Great Question.

I personally think that HDCD's sound different on HDCD enabled players than on ordinary CD players. All my HDCD's don't sound right on my non HDCD CD player.

For example I have the original release of Joni Mitchell "Blue", which is just fantastic. It was remastered in 2000 with HDCD and sounds awful in comparison.

Of course it could just be an example of bad mastering! I don't have any of Steve's HDCD's, but all the ordinary CD's that I have mastered by him are fantastic.

Best Regards

 

I thought HDCD players have a special chip that can decipher the signal and give the listener the full benefits from the HDCD format. So....IMO, you need an HDCD player to get the best presentation from these discs. If not, why even bother mentioning HDCD on the disc.

 

Okay I am more inclined to believe Steve than the author of the Stereophile article which is old.
But, again this author was hypothesizing, that the LSB is used to give instructions and if it ain't being used in a non-HDCD player for music, well it just made me think I might ask here.

 

Yes, Now I am getting a head-ache.

 

So then, I am to believe that these discs would sound identical in a regular cd player and the same model regular cd player with HDCD?

 

The HDCD will sound better on an HDCD player, but the standard redbook part will sound like a redbook CD. Its like playing a hybrid SACD. The SACD layer sounds better than the redbook layer. Same here.

When an HDCD is made, the least significant bit (I believe its the 16th bit) is dropped, and the HDCD information is placed there. The LSB is just quantization noise anyway, so actually you will get a quieter sounding redbook CD than would normally get, because the bit of noise is dropped.

 

Not every hdcd disc makes use of all the features that are possilbe to implement with hdcd. The differences between an encoded disc and a non encoded disc can vary depending on which options were used.

 

This is my understanding as well.

 

I disagree with this. Steve said, I believe, that he was able to get the HDCD decoder to produce an output that would sound transparent when played back undecoded. I believe it still should sound better when decoded. If not, there was no reason to have the D/A decoder set the bits which "turn on" the HDCD indicator light. If the CD sounds IDENTICAL whether decoded or not then it can't be using ANY of the HDCD features.

Steve, would you please clear this up again for us?

 

I absolutely agree with this assesment of the benefits of HDCD. I hope that Steve jumps in here and clarifies this debate.

 

That is what I was hoping.

 

I hope this will show up for everyone... This backs up my previous statement.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=816105&postcount=26

 

Steve means that there will not be any ill effects from playing back an HDCD on a non HDCD player. The sound will be the best that a redbook CD is capable of. However, when played back on an HDCD player, you will realize the sonic benifits of the HDCD. Just like a hybrid SACD. If you play the SACD layer, it will sound better than the redbook layer.

 

How does this back up what you said? All I see is that Steve and Kevin were using a prototype D to A converter. The post says nothing about redbook being the same as HDCD.

I think Nino's post is accurate.

 

Theoretically, I would assume that an HDCD encoded disc played back on a player that can decode HDCD should sound better than the same disc played back on a player that cannot decode HDCD, but....... my ears tell me different.

In the real world there are a lot of other factors at play. For instance, I had a Denon 3800 that decoded HDCD hooked up to my system for a few years, and I also own the Sony XA777ES. I actually did an A/B comparison of the same disc (HDCD encoded) played on the XA777ES and played on the Denon 3800. For all intents and purposes the XA777ES is a much better audio CD player than the Denon 3800, and it showed in my little test.

The disc I played, a disc from the HDCD encoded Buffalo Springfield box set, sounded worlds better on the XA777ES which cannot decode HDCD than on the Denon 3800 which was decoding HDCD. Othertimes I would place an HDCD decoded disc in the Denon and listen for awhile, and then put the disc in the XA777ES (or vice versa), and in all cases my ears preferred the XA777ES over the HDCD decoded Denon 3800.

So saying that HDCD discs will always sound superior played in a player capable of decoding HDCD is somewhat misleading, especially if one has access to an inferior HDCD player in relation to a better plain redbook CD player. YMMV.

So in the real world, if I had another player that was at the same level as the XA777ES with the ability to decode HDCD, I would assume the comparison would show the HDCD decoded disc to sound superior. With my current set-up I prefer the XA777ES over HDCD decoded discs in the Denon 3800.

 

That was in regards to the "Custom modified built" DAC I was referring to where a member had commented that he didn't believe that there was a unique HDCD unit being used in the mastering of the 24KT CDs. Sorry, wrong HDCD thread for this quote. IIRC it was in the Bad Co. thread where Steve said that redbook CDP owners will not have anything less than our HDCDP members. I'll look around and try and find it later and repost when I have a minute.

 

This only proves that your Sony sounds better than your Denon. I have a Pioneer 47Ai that I played a hybrid SACD on and then played the redbook layer on my Krell 20i and the 10 year old Krell was better sounding.

The true test would be two identical cd players one with HDCD and one without.

 

My Adcom CD player, the top of the line model, the GCD-750. Its like $2000 or so. It has HDCD playback, BUT you can turn off the HDCD decoding. Its interesting for A/B-ing the two. There is indeed a difference, the HDCD sounds better!

 

In your case, as I pointed out in my post, HDCD is the better choice.. since the same player is playing back both HDCD decoded and the non-decoded stream off the same disc. ( I allude to this when I state that if I had a player at the same level as the XA777ES that did HDCD, I would assume HDCD to sound better.)

In my case, as I assume many others, HDCD might be a non-issue since they may already have a redbook player that does redbook (regardless of HDCD), better than one they might get just to play HDCD.

I guess, if you only have one player and that player does HDCD, you are better off listening to an HDCD decoded CD than not.

My point that I am trying to make is that many people feel they may be missing something by not having an CD player that can decode HDCD when listening to HDCD discs. In reality that may not be true if the redbook player they are using is of such a quality that it basically renders HDCD useless if they were merely to try and obtain a player (or outboard decoder for that matter) that does HDCD that is of a lower quality than their redbook player of choice.

 

Yes, they are missing something, just as if they bought hybrid SACD's and did not have an SACD player. However, the redbook section will not be any worse than a standard redbook only CD.

 

OK, now I have a question. I am looking at a NAD 541i HDCD player. Will an HDCD player play an SACD or are these two separate and distinct formats where each format requires it's own dedicated player?

 

An HDCD disc is a redbook CD. HDCD is just a method of CD encoding. An HDCD player will only play an SACD of it is an SACD player. An HDCD disc has only one data "set" on it; redbook CD.

SACD is a distinct format. You need an SACD player to play an SACD, although ALL SACD players also play CDs. Some SACD players also encode HDCD CDs.

 

Only if it's a hybrid with a (redbook) CD layer and yes they are two different animals and most SACD players will play (redbook) CDs, if not all of them.

Now I ask if we can stay on track.

I have a hard time believing that a disc mastered for playback on an HDCD player will sound as good on a non-HDCD player as a disc mastered straight redbook on a standard CD player.
I wish the Tonmeister would jump in here and share us his thoughts.