HDCD sound without decoding?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by jenkovix, Oct 17, 2016.

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  1. jenkovix

    jenkovix Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Europe, Hungary
    Hi all,

    there are still HDCDs on the market what you can buy. I am looking to buy a few in the near future but I have no HDCD capable cd player. What kind of sound I would get? Red book only? Or what is the case here?
    Thank you for your input and regrads
     
  2. rjp

    rjp Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    HDCD encoded discs play just fine when you play them on a played without decoding capabilities, at least they do to me :shrug:

    however it is noticeable when you play them on an encodable player too.
     
    Brother_Rael likes this.
  3. jenkovix

    jenkovix Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Europe, Hungary
    ok, understood, what what kind of output do I have without the HDCD decoder chip? This is what I don't get :help:
     
  4. rjp

    rjp Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    way too techie for me.......i just trust my ears.

    i'm sure someone here can give you the numbers though.
     
  5. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff

    Location:
    NY
    IronWaffle and c-eling like this.
  6. EddieVanHalen

    EddieVanHalen Forum Resident

    I have several HDCD mastered CD's. The Van Halen remasters from 2000 done using HDCD by Chris Bellman are a mess either decoded or undecoded, they are very compressed. A pitty as Chris Bellman is a terrific mastering engineer, just have to listen to these very same recordings re-released in 2015 and remastered by him as 192/24 download or vinyl LP's, they're great.
    The soundtracks for Independence Day (SPARS code on back cover is wrong, it was tracked to analog and mixed-down to 24 bit digital) and Star Wars Revenge Of The Sith (there's no HDCD logo anywhere on this one) sound awesome decoded,very dinamic.
     
  7. rbbert

    rbbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, NV, USA
    If Peak Extend wasn't enabled during the encoding process (often true), I find very little if any difference between decoded and undecoded HDCD. YMMV of course
     
    Ham Sandwich likes this.
  8. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    ^^^ Agreed. "Unlimited" HDCD-encoded discs, not utilizing Peak Extend (PE) or Low Level Range Extension (LLRE) features will play just fine in RBCD mode. Discs encoded with PE and/or LLRE features can benefit greatly from HDCD decoding though...
     
    harby and TarnishedEars like this.
  9. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    Exactly. Basically if an HDCD uses Peak extend, and you don't decode, your peaks will be compressed when compared to decoded.
     
  10. qwerty

    qwerty A resident of the SH_Forums.

    Wikipedia article on HDCD:
    "The claim that the encoding process is compatible with ordinary CD players (without audible distortion), is disputed: “Not being able to decode the peak soft limiting, a normal CD player will output distorted peaks” ". (reference: The HDCD Enigma).
     
  11. mds

    mds Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    I guess this is the reason at times I like certain HDCDs and others not so much, my player is not HDCD compliant. Its a shame then that Neil Young and the Dead not to mention others went this route.
     
  12. Eduardo Denaro

    Eduardo Denaro Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minnesota
    Just this weekend this question was on my mind. I recently purchased an Oppo 103D and had yet to play any HDCD's on it. Actually kind of forgot about the format to be honest. Then I thought I'd throw on the underwhelming 2012 Beach Boys series which was HDCD. I actually thought they were much improved. Surfer Girl sounded superb (especially in stereo). Knowing what I know now I'd consider seeking out HDCD copies of albums that I love in the same way I gravitate toward DVD-A or SACD. Enjoy your explorations.
     
  13. Opeth

    Opeth Forum Resident

    Location:
    NH
    Is there a database or something that shows if they used PE or LLRE ? I have a few of these discs the only one I listen to a lot is ghost reveries from opeth and it seems to sound better than any other copy or rip I have out of oppo 103...
     
  14. saturnsf

    saturnsf Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    All the Neil Young CDs can be found cheaply used before the HDCD mastering.
     
    mds likes this.
  15. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    Oh gawd, it is so complicated. Well, not that bad, but there were various options you could enable or ignore. For instance, the level of non-HDCD discs was to be reduced -6 dB per the licensing agreement. Supposedly, this was so the "peak extend" HDCD feature would go all the way to zero. Personally, I cynically believed it was just to make the non-HDCD discs softer. I worked for a large audio company, and we went to license HDCD technology. I told the attorneys that there was no way we were throwing away 6 dB of dynamic range for the 99% of non-HDCD discs, and to tell Pacific Microsonics that we would absolutely NOT sign the agreement with that clause; if they insisted, we would simply not license their technology at all. They caved.

    Part of the "good sound" of HDCD I and others believe was actually due to a well implemented decoder/DAC chip.

    At this point, HDCD encoding is kind of dumb, because the decoding is not much available. Pacific Microsonics sold out to Microsoft, who then buried the technology as far as I know. So all those Grateful Dead etc HDCD discs should sound fine, but not really quite like they should.

    So while we're at it, what ARE the options to decode HDCD today?
     
    Mr. Explorer likes this.
  16. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Here's a post where I list the HDCD titles that I have and whether each has PE or LLRE: HDCDs with Peak Extend »

    That list didn't include any of the Audio Fidelity CDs that I have. The Audio Fidelity HDCD discs don't use PE or LLRE.

    Unfortunately, I don't have any Opeth. So I don't know if that one has PE or LLRE.
    What I do is rip the CD to lossless. Configure CUETools to check for HDCD encoding. Then verify the ripped files in CUETools. The verify action in CUETools will detect if there is HDCD and then list out the HDCD features that it detected.
     
  17. Sevoflurane

    Sevoflurane Forum Resident

    Options for decoding HDCD? Rip the CD with dBPoweramp using the HDCD plugin and you end up with a 44.1K/24bit file with the HDCD decoded. Plays just fine on a computer.
     
  18. Rogn Valdr

    Rogn Valdr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Courtrai, Belgique
    Theoretically a plugin could just be used on the 16/44.1 rip if such a plugin would exist. I know some receivers could also decode the HDCD signal. Years ago I considered buying a Denon receiver that according to the specs could do that. However I decided to wait and see what the format would do... not much ever since Microsoft bought the rights.
     
  19. dmckean

    dmckean Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    There's been an HDCD decoder plugin for foobar for at least a decade. You can transcode with it to create files that always have the extra resolution in them no matter what player you use.
     
    The Revealer likes this.
  20. Rogn Valdr

    Rogn Valdr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Courtrai, Belgique
    I am aware of that. What I was suggesting is that a different plugin -if it existed- could just read the lossless rip and decode the HDCD signal on the fly every time it is played.
     
  21. superstar19

    superstar19 Authentic By Nature

    Location:
    Canton, MI, USA
    That already is possible with the HDCD plugin that you can use when you playback your lossless rip. I use it in Musicbee and I'm sure the same is possible through Foobar, dbPoweramp, Mediamonkey, etc. No need to create a lossless rip with the HDCD decoded.
     
    Mr. Explorer likes this.
  22. Rogn Valdr

    Rogn Valdr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Courtrai, Belgique
    ah okay. I haven't used Windows in years so it would appear I am not quite up to date in this respect :)
     
    Mr. Explorer likes this.
  23. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    I know some other dacs/players also had the attenuation of non-HDCD discs disabled. But anyway, in my experience, HDCD discs sound fine on a non-HDCD player. But some of them really sound *great* on an HDCD-capable player. Had to be well recorded and done right in the mastering of course. But I think it could produce a very good sounding disc. basically 20 bit/44khz playback. shows you that the bit depth (can) matter.
     
    Mr. Explorer likes this.
  24. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    I *think* it shows that anyway...
     
    hoover537 and Mr. Explorer like this.
  25. shaboo

    shaboo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bonn, Germany
    Except that such a rip can be played everywhere and is no longer dependent on some on-the-fly decoding capability of your playback software.
     
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