Headphones for PONO

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Ephi82, Apr 30, 2015.

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  1. htom

    htom Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Surf Cables makes a single cable solution for the PM-3, unlike the other cable I mentioned in an earlier post, is this the one you are referring to?

    I think I mentioned this before, but anyone with the Oppo PM-1 or PM-2 headphones can get an entry level cable for the Pono player, but it isn't listed that way there any more. The cable for the Sennheiser HD700 will work with these headphones if one is willing to do some trimming of plastic to make the mono plugs going into the headphone side actually fit the jacks. Given the cables only cost £28 before shipping it may be worth the effort. The wires used for this cable are about the same as those used in Oppo's headphone cable with mini stereo plug (the included cable with a standard plug is much thicker and sturdier), so comparing the performance of the different cables with the Pono player ends up being apt, given the wires used are very comparable. And yes, I believe I can hear a difference in the sound: a slightly wider and deeper soundstage and an ability to more easily distinguish separate elements of the mix. I'm not sure if the extra amps in play or the noise rejection inherent in the balanced wiring is the key factor in either or both effects, but it does make an audible difference.
     
  2. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Yeah, I was referring to the Surf Cables cable for the PM-3 to the Pono.

    Norne Audio also makes a balanced cable for the PM-3 and can do the dual TRS termination for the Pono. But Norne cables are more expensive (in the $200+ range).

    There's a head-fi meet in Seattle next weekend. May possibly have a Norne balanced cable for the PM-3 there to try. And at least one PM-3 headphone will be there too. So with some luck I should get to try the PM-3 balanced with the PonoPlayer.
     
  3. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    There's a post at head-fi about the Sony MDR-1A cable. Mentions that the TRRS wiring for the MDR-1A headphones is different than the wiring for the Oppo PM-3 headphone.
    The MDR-1A headphone TRRS jack is L+, R+, R-, L-
    The PM-3 headphone TRRS jack is L+, R+, L-, R-

    If that info is correct then the Sony cable isn't going to work with the Oppo PM-3 to connect to the PonoPlayer. Bummer.
     
  4. N.T.Wrong

    N.T.Wrong Forum Resident

    Hi again! I just purchased an as-new Pono Player LE (Arcade Fire) off ebay. Let me know what headphones you ultimately settle on. I'm pretty sold on the Oppo PM-3 myself, but I'm new to the conversation around balanced headphones and I'm sure there are lots of options I'm not aware of. It will be a while before I'm in a position to buy the headphones so I still have time to change my mind!
    Darn! But thanks for letting me know before I wasted my money.
     
  5. ego1jr

    ego1jr Forum Resident

    Any suggestions on where to purchase the balanced cable? Is there a particular type of cable needed for a Pono/Sennheiser 650 combo?
     
  6. htom

    htom Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Very simply, the cable has to terminate in two stereo mini plugs for the Pono player, not the typical XLR connectors. a lot of third party cable makers will sell them, but few headphone manufacturers have.
     
  7. Dino

    Dino Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City - USA
    I have nothing to compare these cables to. Given that, I am happy with the CARDAS PONO PLAYER BALANCED MODE HEADPHONE CABLE SENNHEISER fromvenus_audio . (About $105 shipped to the USA.)

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/171629420247?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

    I do not find them to be stiff. I have heard no microphonics. They plug in to the headphones easily.
     
  8. markaudio

    markaudio Forum Resident

    I bought mine from surf cables. See link on Htom's post above.
     
  9. Colgin

    Colgin Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York, NY

    Wow. I am really surprised by this. My PM-2, which are open and not really meant to be portable, sound really good out my Iphone 5s. And putting quality aside they can get deafening loud if I want them to (I don't). Surprised that the PM-3, which is intended to be portable, cannot be sufficiently driven by the Pono in SE mode. On second thought, I assume you mean you don't like the sound and feel it needs more power to sound good (thus need for balanced cable), not that it cannot get loud.
     
  10. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    The PonoPlayer isn't crazy powerful in single-ended mode. The volume setting that gets loud enough also depends on the loudness of the song. One of the songs I used for testing the 3D-ness presentation was "Down to the River to Pray" by Alison Krauss from the "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou" soundtrack. It's not a loud song. You can take a song like that to 100% volume with the PM-3 and not be deafening loud.

    I was at a head-fi meet last weekend. There was a PM-3 there. And a custom balanced cable for the PM-3 by Norne Audio was also there. But I neglected to try them. The meet was only 4 hours long and there was soooo much to try to listen to. Ran out of time then realized I forgot to try the PM-3 balanced with the Pono. I did get to try the Audio Zenith PMx2 modded PM-2 in balanced mode with the Pono. It's awesome. I like it. Much more open sounding than the stock PM-2. I don't recall how high I had the volume control when playing "Down to the River to Pray". They got plenty loud, even in a noisy meet environment where you tend to listen to open headphones louder than you would otherwise.
     
  11. anodyne

    anodyne Forum Resident

    I just received my balanced PM-3 cable a couple of days ago from Norne Audio. I was already very happy with my PONO, listening to the PM-3 in single-ended mode, and for most albums taking the volume to about 75% volume was plenty. Listening in balanced mode, though, was a revelation. NOW I get the 3-D thing that folks have been talking about. PONO in balanced mode is something special. The Norne Audio cable for the Oppo headphones was expensive and took a couple of months to be built, but I couldn't be happier with it. It revealed what the PONO was capable of, but was passing me by in plain sight. That I was already loving the PONO before the balanced cable only adds to my support of the player. It's a great little device.
     
    JeffMo, Ham Sandwich, Dino and 3 others like this.
  12. Ivand

    Ivand Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I have the blue ones. They do look cool! Very comfortable.
     
    Vinylsoul 1965 likes this.
  13. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Awesome! Good to know that the PM-3 reveals the magic when doing balanced.

    Balanced mode with the Pono is indeed something special. Magic happens. I've tried to describe it as 3-D or enveloping. Which is part of it. There's also a sense of smoothness that lets the music sound and feel right. All of which is very pono. There are hints of all that when using single ended mode. But it really comes through when using balanced mode with good headphones. Once you've heard the magic in balanced mode you'll be able to better hear the hints of that magic in single ended mode. The same style of sound is there in single ended mode. It's just more subtle.
     
    Dino likes this.
  14. The Entertainer

    The Entertainer Forum Resident

    The Sony MDR-V-55-DJ's are pretty good phones that fold flat.
     
  15. Trapper J

    Trapper J Senior Member

    Location:
    Great White North
    Balanced cable/balanced mode... is this something exclusive to pono? And other high end players? Or would a balancing cabel create better sound when used with any device, i.e. cell phones and other mp3 players?

    I tried to search for this answer but have had no luck.
     
  16. htom

    htom Senior Member

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Balanced audio for portable players? Yes, this appears to be exclusive as this mode uses all four amps built into the player and thus will require twice as much power than in single end (headphone or line out) modes thus reducing the expected battery life. It also requires specially built cables.

    Balanced audio in general? The output equipment has to support it in the first place, and that eliminates just about everything considered portable. Balanced audio in home consumer equipment isn't all that common either, and is usually reserved for high end components given the expense.

    This .pdf sheet might explain things a bit further, at the least as it relates to this player. Other sheets can be found here though this may require being a registered user.
     
    Trapper J likes this.
  17. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    I am not an expert, but my understanding is the answer to your question about a balanced cable bringing benefits to a non balanced DAP is no, the amp at the minimum has be designed in a balanced mode. Further benefits come to balanced components when things including the preamp or dac, the steps end to end, are designed in a balanced mode as well, a fully balanced design; so if other DAPs are not designed internally for this balanced mode no cable is going to change this. From Pono’s site: “The audio circuitry in the PonoPlayer is fully balanced, from the D/A converter chip (and when used with specialized equipment) to the output jacks. This is the first portable audio player in the world to be made this way.”
     
    Trapper J likes this.
  18. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Balanced headphone drive is not exclusive to Pono. There are other portables and portable amp/dac combos that offer balanced headphone output. Like some models by companies like Astell&Kern, Cypher Labs, LH Labs, Sony, and others. HeadRoom was the first to develop a balanced headphone amp back in 2001. HeadRoom has an info page describing balanced headphone amps.

    Balanced headphone drive doesn't always mean significantly better sound. There are some balanced headphone amps where the difference between single-ended mode and balanced mode is not that noticeable. And there are some where the difference is larger and more noticeable. It depends on the design of the amp. A really well designed single-ended amp can sound better than a balanced amp. Balanced doesn't automatically mean better.

    What's special about balanced mode with the Pono is that its balanced mode offers a nice and noticeable improvement in the sound. An improvement that goes beyond just offering more power, better channel separation, and lower noise. Which is why I say magic happens when using the Pono's balanced output.

    You can add balanced headphone drive to portables like an iPhone or other compatible portables by adding an external DAC/amp that is balanced. Like one of the Cypher Labs or LH Labs portable DAC/amps. There's others besides just Cypher Labs or LH Labs. It does require a compatible portable device for that sort of setup to work.

    There's also portable and transportable balanced headphone amps. Amps that can take a single-ended line out signal and convert it to a balanced headphone output to drive balanced headphones.
     
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  19. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    Good information, and I think the difference you note might be in the fully balanced design, plus I think the zero-feedback design must be adding to this; as far as I know, again very little knowledge of DAPs, Pono might be unique in this approach. I have read Hansen’s description of at least the zero-feeback here and I think it is worth reading if anyone has not.
     
    Dino and Trapper J like this.
  20. Trapper J

    Trapper J Senior Member

    Location:
    Great White North
    Lots of great info. Thanks guys!
     
  21. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    I've had my Pono for a while and I want to upgrade to balanced headphones to use with it. Would my best bet be the Sennheiser 600 with a corresponding cable? Is there a cheaper alternative that still has good sound, or is that the bare minimum to expect good sound?

    Thanks!
     
  22. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    After doing some research, I got a used pair of Sennheiser 600s. The only other option that looked realistic for my budget was the Hifiman HE-400, and I read enough mixed things about them at Head-fi that I thought the small price hike for the used Sennys was worth the difference in quality.

    I also ordered a balanced cable and adapter from Surf Cable. I'm mainly planning to use them for balanced mode on the Pono, but I don't have a headphone amp at the moment and I figured the adapter would give me more options when I decide to get one, instead of switching back and forth between the stock cable and the balanced cable.
     
    darkmass and Dino like this.
  23. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    Finally received my Surf Cable today. Been playing around with the Pono in balanced mode. I am loving this! Whereas in unbalanced mode it sounded like I was sitting in front of the music (if that makes sense), now it sounds like I'm sitting within it. And so far virtually everything I've put on has sounded better, from Iron Maiden to Mozart to Bjork. Just beautiful.

    I also donated to the Trinity Atlas/Helio kickstarter, got an earlybird on the Atlas. They're balanced IEMs and the manufacturer is going to add a Pono cable option. The previous Trinity IEMs have gotten very high marks on the Pono forums, so I think this will be a good way to use balanced mode when out and about, since the Senny's are bulky and open backed.

    I also quite like the build quality on the cable itself. Nice strong metal connectors and a flexible sleeve to keep the wires protected. Also came with a carrying case.
     
    kBear and Dino like this.
  24. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    Holy cow, Kate Bush in balanced mode is how I've always wanted to hear this music!
     
  25. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    That sound style that makes it sound like you're within the music is what I've described as an enveloping soundstage. It's really neat and sounds so much more natural on headphones than the more typical soundstage that you get with headphones. That enveloping soundstage sounds really good when it happens. So really good.
     
    darkmass, Merrick and Dino like this.
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