Help! Is my new ultrasonic cleaner broken?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by dharmabumstead, Oct 5, 2015.

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  1. dharmabumstead

    dharmabumstead Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    I purchased a Klaudio record cleaning machine and got it last Friday. I'm not sure it's working like it should. The water pumps and the dryer seem to be working OK, but it doesn't seem like the ultrasonics are actually cleaning the record. I've tested with a bunch of records - everything from thrift shop finds on up to a pristine unopened 45-rpm MoFi pressing of Bob Dylan's 'Another Side of Bob Dylan' LP, and I'm not hearing much difference. And pretty much every review I've read says that this thing should make a dramatic difference in sound quality.

    I've done some before-and-after sound samples:

    The first (klaudio2-before.wav and klaudio2-after.wav) is a weird but visually NM Israeli green vinyl pressing of Pink Floyd's 'Wish You Were Here' LP - this recording has a very quiet intro. I'm hearing almost no difference between the before and after samples:

    Before:
    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/klaudio/KlaudioTest2-Before.wav

    After:
    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/klaudio/KlaudioTest2-After.wav

    The second (klaudio3-before.wav and klaudio3-after.wav) is the Bob Dylan record - this is the first time I've opened it. Again, almost no difference:

    Before:
    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/klaudio/KlaudioTest3-Before.wav

    After:
    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/klaudio/KlaudioTest3-After.wav

    Based on my conversation with Klaudio support earlier today, I carefully wrapped a bound-for-the-thrift-shop copy of a record in aluminum foil and ran it for 2 minutes wash / 2 minutes dry in the cleaner. I've enclosed the before-and-after pics (see below). According to Tim from Klaudio, I should see pitting on both sides of the foil. And there is some pitting - more on the first side than the second - but I have no idea what this is supposed to look like from a properly functioning unit.:

    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/klaudio/Klaudio-Before-A.jpg
    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/klaudio/Klaudio-Before-B.jpg
    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/klaudio/Klaudio-After-A.jpg
    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/klaudio/Klaudio-After-B.jpg

    It seems like the cleaner is getting the record wet and drying it off, but it doesn't seem like the ultrasonics are working properly.

    Can anyone - especially people who own ultrasonic cleaners - help me out here?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Turnaround

    Turnaround Senior Member

    Location:
    -
    What did you expect the ultrasonic cleaner to do?

    An ultrasonic cleaner gets rid of dirt and particles, but it's not going to fix scratches or damage on the vinyl itself. A lot of old vinyl has noise at the very beginning, or in the silent parts between tracks (there are threads on this board where people offer theories why). If the noise is not because of dirt, I don't think an ultrasonic cleaner (or anything else) can get rid of that noise.

    A new record should be pretty clean to begin with, so I'm not sure you will always hear a difference cleaning a new record with an ultrasonic.

    Whether I use an ultrasonic cleaner or a traditional vacuum record cleaning machine, I'd describe the difference on a dirty used record like this: First, some noise goes away. How much noise goes away varies, if there is a difference at all. Second, the overall sound feels cleaner, tighter, more grounded, more solid, more lively. I can only describe it like gripping something with a latex glove on, versus with your finger tips: the overall touch is more palpabe. How much more varies, if there is a difference at all.

    When I replace the water in my ultrasonic, especially after running many dirty old records (versus new records that are pretty clean to begin with), the water will have a lot of little particulates. When I wipe the basin, my cloth will have a lot of tiny black particles. That might be a way for you to check whether your cleaner is actually pulverizing and removing dirt.

    I also note that you are using a $4,000 machine to clean records, but playing the records on a turntable and cartridge worth about $500. I just raise how much your set-up will reveal the difference in cleaner grooves.
     
  3. BrokenByAudio

    BrokenByAudio Forum Resident

    expectation breakdown.

    Just chill: it's all good.
     
    rob303 likes this.
  4. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    With the turntable you have - you certainly should notice the difference between a cleaned record and one that is obviously dirty. If it really did cost you 4K - I'd send that puppy back and just get a nice VPI 16.5 or a something similar.
     
  5. dharmabumstead

    dharmabumstead Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Yes, I do have a pretty modest setup - a Technics 1600 turntable with an Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge going through a Pioneer SX-850 - but it's set up properly and sounds good to me (and I've heard setups costing many many times more). I've always believed that a strict cleaning regimen makes a huge difference no matter what your setup. I've been using a Spin Clean and a VPI 16.5 with Audio Intelligent Vinyl Solutions to good effect up until this point before I decided to take the plunge on an ultrasonic cleaner. I was expecting a much more dramatic sound improvement with the Klaudio that I'm just not hearing, and I really am not sure if it's just that my expectations were too high based on all of the superlative reviews I've read, or if there's something off with the machine...

    Has anyone listened to the audio samples?

    Thanks!
     
  6. BrokenByAudio

    BrokenByAudio Forum Resident

    I'll echo, functionally, the response of Turnaround. I don't think you have gear at the level that warrants an expenditure of a Klaudio. It's not he ultrasonic cleaner that is not doing what it is supposed to, it is your expectations of your front end that are waaaaay overblown.

    Once you get the rest of your gear up to speed you will reap the benefits of your high end RCM. Until then, no. There's no free lunch in this business.
     
    Tommyboy and Erocka2000 like this.
  7. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    I wouldn't have expected it to be much better than your VPI 16.5 which already does a pretty damn good job. What I typically hear is that you can clean more records faster with the ultra sonic whereas a Vacuum RCM has much more work and time involved. Send that puppy back and get yourself something nice for 4K.
     
    Tommyboy likes this.
  8. dharmabumstead

    dharmabumstead Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    OK. At what "level" might that be? Are you telling me that if I took one of the records I've tested with the Klaudio and played it back on a $30K VPI Classic DD and a $5K cartridge that it'd sound less dirty than it does on my $500 vintage turntable with the $300 Ortofon 2M Blue? That the clicks and pops and groove grunge I'm hearing will magically disappear? I would think, if anything, that the more expensive setup would be even more revealing of the faults on a dirty piece of vinyl...
     
    Deano6 likes this.
  9. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    Don't go there my friend - you will only hear the usual responses and end up frustrated. You already have a very sound cleaning regimen (no pun intended.) Use that money for carts, phono-pre anything besides another cleaning machine. Best of luck.
     
    Tommyboy and BrokenByAudio like this.
  10. dharmabumstead

    dharmabumstead Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Well, I *wanna* go there. I'm not being combative - I'm truly curious and would welcome any prescriptive guidance/feedback. What's a good modern equivalent to the vintage turntable I'm using now? Which cart? And - much more interesting to me than anything - why would an insufficiently cleaned record sound any better on a more expensive rig?

    I've sat in front of massively expensive systems that cost into the 5- and 6-figure ranges with speaker cables the size of a theater's velvet rope that have sounded like **** - and I've listened to modestly priced vintage systems that barely peek into the 4-figures that have sounded awesome. Is dollar expenditure really an accurate barometer of how something sounds?
     
  11. BrokenByAudio

    BrokenByAudio Forum Resident


    It's less a matter of "less dirty" than overall ability to resolve details. Pops and clicks are either there or they are not (in terms of a more vigorous cleaning regimen).

    If you are asking me if there would be a difference between your setup and the VPI DD and a $5K cart, I would guess yes, just "wildly", even though I've not heard a VPI DD. I HAVE gone from the Rega P5 with a Benz Micro Glider and a VPI 16.5 RCM to a Audio Desk System ultrasonic cleaner with the same front end, and re-cleaned records done previously on the VPI 16.5 and heard substantial differences. I now have a VPI Classic III with a Ortofon A90 cart and differences are readily apparent before and after cleaning. Just sayin'.

    What we are going through with this discussion is just another of the never-ending points of departure in which people refuse to believe that spending more money will result in any improvements in sound quality. It's just a question of increments, or diminishing returns. You have to decide if they are worth it to you or not but you don't get to make the judgment until you've heard the changes in your own setup. Typically, the people who refuse to make a substantial enough upgrade are the ones who will insist that there is no benefit to be had. Those who will make the commitment are rewarded, by degrees, as often as not. This is NOT to say that spending a lot of money will make things a lot better because there are all kinds of variables. But all things being even, spending more will enhance your chances of getting better results.

    Now going to the bomb shelter...
     
    Tommyboy likes this.
  12. dharmabumstead

    dharmabumstead Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Thanks for the response. The "substantial differences" piece is what I'm hung up on. I'm not hearing them. Is it really my rig, or is it the Klaudio?

    Aside from my original basic question of whether or not the Klaudio is actually functioning properly: I don't by any stretch of the imagination think that I have the ultimate setup; it's deliberately vintage gear, and I didn't cost a lot (the Klaudio is definitely the most expensive piece of gear in my studio, aside from some of my guitars)...but it sounds *sweet* to my ears. And my last post about listening to extremely expensive systems (by my standards, anyway) that sounded awful are not exaggerated in the slightest. Tellingly, the guy who owned the system spent more time talking about how much he *spent* on it than how it sounded.

    I'm not afraid to spend the money...and I've been eyeing the VPI Classic series...but I'm not at all sure which modern turntable would be (let's say) just the *equivalent* of the vintage turntable that I have now; they really don't seem to make them like they used to. But how much do I need to spend to get a modern turntable that will be as pleasing to my ears? That will sound better than what I've got now? That will (hehe) be deserving* of a Klaudio ultrasonic cleaner? :)


    * I laughed out loud when I read the post pointing out that I had a $4K RCM and a $500 turntable...(a) I wondered how long that would take if I posted here, and (b) don't think it didn't occur to me as I was clicking 'order' on Klaudio's website...
     
  13. adamdube

    adamdube Forum Resident

    Location:
    Elyria, OH USA
    That 5K cartridge will have a different stylus that just might get down into the groove below the dirt the blue stylus is tripping over. But then the ultrasonic cleaner should get said dirt out of the groove so the blue can sail through.....what a conundrum.
     
  14. dharmabumstead

    dharmabumstead Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    What a conundrum. Exactly. Should I just upgrade to a 2M Bronze or Black? That's a relatively modest upgrade - under $1K.

    When I first got back into vinyl I initially had a really crappy plastic Pioneer turntable...I then picked up a Pro-ject but it was exceptionally noisy...then I found the Technics 1600 direct drive on craigslist and went over for a listen and loved it.

    I can't seem to find a modern direct drive turntable other than the VPI Classic direct drive for $30K. And that's not in my budget. $3-$5K would be more in line with what I'd want to spend...
     
  15. BrokenByAudio

    BrokenByAudio Forum Resident


    That "substantial differences" is something only you can determine for yourself, it's all degrees of subjective.

    If you'll allow me (based on 40-something years of upgrading), you have approached it all wrong. What you are doing is concentrating of quality of source material first (recordings, pressings, cleaning, etc) and this all gets you minimal bang for money spent. Put money into speakers first, then catch up with other stuff. Once you catch up you will figure out that there is more to be had from better speakers, and so it goes around again...

    Diminishing returns. At some point you have to quit obsessing (and simultaneously quit insisting that there is no point to spending more!!)
     
  16. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    A good cleaning methodology using high quality fluids with any decent vacuum based RCM (it can be a lot less expensive than the VPI actually-it's not rocket science here-all the RCM is doing is sucking fluid off a record) is going to get the records pretty clean.

    And the AIVS are certainly among the best; if the OP is using the AIVS system and rinsing well with a high purity water product those records are going to be pretty clean.

    A better front end is always a good thing. On the other hand, I'm pretty confident I can get a record just as clean using a KAB EV-1, AIVS #15 and ultrapure water as I could using the Audiodesk or KL Audio. No argument from me that they are more convenient and less labour intensive in terms of cleaning records but $4K buys a lot of music and/or some very good equipment.
     
  17. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    VPI Classic is a great choice from a Technics owner - you get the longer arm, massive platter, belt drive, massive plinth and unipivot arm. That is the table I selected- I have @2200 Technics table and @ 2800 VPI classic - they are both my children and couldn't give one up.
     
  18. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    Agreed 100%! I use a ClearAudio RCM with AVIS (I use the # 6 and #15 + rinse) - and it is hard to beat. I have no urge at all to upgrade to a US cleaner. Spend the 4K elswhere.
     
  19. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    You can find a lot better than the SL-1600, and they do make them like they did back in the day. Don't get hung up on the fact that it must be DD. Unless you have perfect pitch you won't be able to tell the difference between DD and a well built belt drive. If I had $4000 to spend I'd buy a $1000 VPI Cyclone RCM and a Scout 2 with periphery ring. Maybe a Phoenix Eagle power supply for a stretch. You'd never miss the US cleaner.

    John K.
     
  20. OcdMan

    OcdMan Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    I've been a direct-drive fan from day one but, at that price, you don't need a direct-drive to get rock solid speed stability. $3-5K will get you a killer sounding belt-drive turntable. Maybe they don't make inexpensive turntables like they used to but that's not a concern at that price. IMO, etc.
     
  21. WntrMute2

    WntrMute2 Forum Resident

    What your experience tells me is that you were already getting your records clean before the KL! Whether or not you can hear any difference with your setup is another matter. The KL is eating holes in aluminum foil. What more do you want it to do? It does strike me as odd that you chose to purchase an accessory that costs 5 times what the source component costs. No value judgment, just unusual.
    If you bought a 4000 dollar set of interconnects that failed to change the sound of your system what would you assume and what would you do?
     
    jeffsab likes this.
  22. KOWHeigel

    KOWHeigel Forum Resident

    Location:
    Manlius, NY
    It's your money to spend as you wish however if it were mine I would send the cleaner back and upgrade your other components first.
     
    timztunz likes this.
  23. timztunz

    timztunz Audioista

    Location:
    Texas
    Yup, that's what I would too, especially since you already have a VPI 16.5.
     
  24. JBStephens

    JBStephens I don't "like", "share", "tweet", or CARE. In Memoriam

    Location:
    South Mountain, NC
    The oustside of the record is slightly raised because of the "lip" around the edge of the vinyl, making it more susceptible to damage. Between songs vinyl noise is more noticeable because there isn't any music to mask it.
     
    timztunz likes this.
  25. phred

    phred Forum Resident

    Purchase a handful of used records and clean them in the machine, if its working there will be residue in the fluid.
     
    timztunz likes this.
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