Help me hear my vinyl please !

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by John Hatter, Oct 19, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. John Hatter

    John Hatter Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    England
    Ok , I've taken the plunge, retrieved the TT from the loft, I bought it in the 80's, and have started listening.
    It's a JVC LF210 direct drive deck and is fitted with an Ortofon D20mk11 stylus. The cartridge is Ortofon VMS10e.
    I use a QED Disc saver to preamp into my Linn CD setup.

    I can already hear the warmer vinyl sound with more bass when I play
    East Side Story - Squeeze
    Kimono My House - Sparks
    Double Fantasy - JL
    and my Elvis Costello vinyl sounds better than the 83/84 remasters.

    So I'm pleased , but want to hear more. Sacrilege I know, but I'm really struggling to hear a huge difference between "Die Beatles" and my Parlophone silver black PPM. :(

    I realise from reading here that many of you have far better vinyl gear than me, and I'd like to upgrade.
    My question is , is any of my existing TT/cartridge worth saving ?
    My preferred route would be to get a better cartridge first , then maybe a better preamp, but would I notice any difference whilst still using this TT ?
    If I start with a better cartridge would the limitations of the QED preamp negate any improvement ?
    Help me back into the world of vinyl !
    but
    Be gentle with me
    Thanks
    John
     
  2. Rick B.

    Rick B. Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'd upgrade the cartridge first. The source is more important in analog than with digital.
     
  3. quadjoe

    quadjoe Senior Member

    I'll second that. The cartridge is the first thing you should upgrade.
     
  4. Vinyl-Addict

    Vinyl-Addict Groovetracer Manufacturer

    Location:
    USA
    John, I'd actually recommend buying a new TT instead of putting a new cart. on a direct drive TT. I think a new or used Rega P3 with a Clearaudio Aurum Beta-S cart. would allow you to hear the difference in your Beatles pressings. Good luck.:)
     
  5. Jim Ricketts

    Jim Ricketts Active Member

    Location:
    Freedom, USA
    I agree with VA. The order of upgrade should be turntable, arm & then cartridge. A belt drive TT should offer better results than DD.

    Also, proper setup can make a difference. I HIGHLY recommend Wally's alignment gauges for cartidge installation...simply the best. The shelf/platform the TT is sited will also impact sound.

    Enjoy your analog!!!
     
  6. PMC7027

    PMC7027 Forum Hall Of Fame

    And don't forget some kind of record cleaning gear!
     
  7. grbl

    grbl Just Lurking

    Location:
    Long Island
    I'm definitely in the TT first, arm second, cartridge third camp. The limiting factor for you currently is that DD table. If you want to go all out get a Linn Sondek (what I have - it's awesome). For something more reasonable, look into Rega or maybe Thorens.
     
  8. Graham Start

    Graham Start Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I have the opposite view. Not that I don't think tonearm/table are important, but the differences between a cheap vs. decent cartridge is far, far more obvious.

    Even a casual listener can immediately spot the difference between a good and a bad cartridge. The effects of tonearm and table design are much more subtle. It doesn't matter if you've got the nicest arm/table combo on the planet if the cartridge makes the hi-hats sound like someone ripping sheets of paper to a beat.
     
  9. quadjoe

    quadjoe Senior Member

    John,

    My impression is that you have a limited budget, so the cartridge will give you the most bang for the buck. If money is no object, then spending a few thousand dollars on a TT, arm & cartridge may be in order. I won't get into the debate of direct drive vs. belt drive as everyone has their own favorites and each system has its pros and cons (DD gives excellent speed accuracy, BD gives the best isolation from motor sounds). I have both kinds of TT and I can tell you that they sound different, but neither sounds bad and I enjoy listening to both (In fact my Technics DD table is utterly quiet, but their design is unique: the platter is actually the moving part of the motor). Since you're just getting back into vinyl, just remember that arm/cartridge set-up and installation, while not particularly difficult, requires patience and good eyes; some arms are trickier than others. Be sure to get the set-up tools the others have recommended. Most of all:
    Enjoy the Music!!!!
     
  10. PMC7027

    PMC7027 Forum Hall Of Fame

    John,
    Although nothing beats seeing and hearing in person, I suggest you use the web to your advantage. Many vendors sell TT packages, set up ready to go.
    I suggest you check out a few web sites, such as Red Trumpet (I know, I sound like a broken record), Audio Advisor, Music Direct, Acoustic Sounds, etc. I'm sure others on this Forum can provide the names of other reputable vendors.

    HTH
     
  11. Shakey

    Shakey New Member

    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    I am with VA on this also. I am also a Linnie sort of but do believe, depending on how good a cartridge were talking about that the improvement will sometimes get lost in the arm and turntable if they are not up to handling the additional information presented by the new cartridge.
    I bought a Ruby 2 and was not impressed until I got rid of the Akito arm and replaced with an Ittok LVIII.
    But if we're talking about a cartridge which would have been compatible with this system and the present one is on it's way out, okay.
    But I believe that a relatively inexpensive dd turntable of this vintage will not sound as good as a lot of the latest belt drives which are relatively cheap.
     
  12. grbl

    grbl Just Lurking

    Location:
    Long Island
    I really disagree, particularly when talking about a direct drive table. You can add the finest cartridge in the world to that, and it will still sound like a direct drive table.
     
  13. PMC7027

    PMC7027 Forum Hall Of Fame

    Before this thread turns into DD vs. BD, please don't forget that the Rockport System Sirius III, arguably one of the best TTs in the world, is direct drive.

    Michael Fremer even said that he thought it was worth the $74,000 price tag, since it extracted more information from his records than any other TT he had ever used.
     
  14. Vinyl-Addict

    Vinyl-Addict Groovetracer Manufacturer

    Location:
    USA
    How can you compare a $74,000 Rockport to a JVC LF210 direct drive deck ? Respectfully:confused:
     
  15. Graham Start

    Graham Start Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    True, but it will still sound better than a $10 cartridge on a decent belt-drive unit. :)

    I guess it all depends on what your ears find more offensive: rumble or distortion.

    And not all DD tables are bad by any means (although I don't know about the one in question). Technics and Dual among others made some very respectable DD tables back in the day. I think it was all the crummy consumer models that gave DD a bad name... but a crummy consumer belt-drive table isn't much better...
     
  16. PMC7027

    PMC7027 Forum Hall Of Fame

    You can't. I'm just pointing out that the DD vs. BD issue is actually an issue of execution, not technology. IMO, it is not a correct statement to say that belt drive is better than direct drive, and the Rockport is my proof.

    Certainly, at the low end of the price range BD turntables may better isolate motor noise and environmental vibrations from the platter than DD turntables. I just wanted to make a point that saying BD is better than DD without qualification isn't correct.
     
  17. Shakey

    Shakey New Member

    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    I hope I wasn't misunderstood when I was comparing this particular vintage dd tt with a current bd, but I suppose I might have been. I was not trying to start a debate on either of their virtues or short comings.

    As with most mechanical devices implementation can elevate what some may consider an inferior technology to perform as well as what some consider the superior technology. An example of this could be the boxer twin utilized in BMW motorcycles. I once owned a couple BMW's and they performed fine as do the current Harleys but...

    To the question and in my opinion I would not consider changing arms, motors etc in a tt of this vintage and design. And it can be debated but depending on the cartridges being considered, if this is the next anticipated upgrade, may not be able to perform their best until other components in the vinyl front end are up to the task.

    In some cases I could understand that an expensive cartridge may sound worse than a less expensive model if the same tonearm is not up to the task of letting the cartridge perform.

    And still nowadays as was way back when fitting the correct cartridge, mass, compliance, type (MM, MC, MI...) is still as important as it was years ago and some designs have fallen out of favor with designers. Used to be for a time Ultra Low Mass tonearms were in vogue which may pose a problem with finding a new cartridge which works well with it and of course the same holds true for the High mass designs of yesteryear.

    Bottom line it was my experience that the Shures worked well with a wide variety of tonearms especially if it utilizes that brush thingy.

    Nevertheless this individual wants to hear his vinyl sound better and the suggestion to purchase a record cleaning system could be the best advice/investment and it will remain compatible even if they change turntables, arms, cartridges, interconnects...
     
  18. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    My sentiments exactly...my V15 first lived on an old Realistic direct drive turntable, and made the biggest difference I ever heard in vinyl playback. Getting it onto my next setup (a Grace arm on a Walker CJ55 deck) gave it a little refinement, but not the huge difference I got in moving up from lesser cartridges.

    I'm not knocking direct drive though. I suffered with belts long enough (slippage and incorrect speeds, much better torque, none of that lifting the platter off to change speeds, etc.) and went back to a really good direct-drive turntable with a strobe. Still have my Grace arm though, as this table came with the proper arm board. The Walker turntable is headed for the garbage when I get to cleaning the basement--it was sold as an "audiophile" grade turntable, but it is nothing but cheaply built, poorly designed junk. Can't be more than $30 in parts in that thing...and looks and feels like it was designed by an 8th grade wood shop class. :(
     
  19. John Hatter

    John Hatter Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    England
    Hey all , I'm the original poster of this thread, and I'm really pleased with all the advice.

    I've been through a number of scenarios in my head and seem to have arrived at the following.

    In the UK I can get a highly regarded Goldring 1042 cartridge for about £110.00 which I can afford. Based on comments here the Shure would be better bet, but in the UK it retails at approx £300.00. But I'm not sure fittingthis cartridge will give me lasting satisfaction with my current TT.

    Based on comments here I'm now thinking of spending about £150-£175 on a second hand Rega P2 or P3 which will come with a "suitable" cartridge. There are always plenty of these on Ebay UK or hifi magazine classified sections. Later I suppose I can go for the Shure V15 .

    How does that seem, any views or things to watch out for with used P2 or P3 ,and is the P3 noticeably superior to the P2 ?

    Thanks again for advice so far.
    John
     
  20. quadjoe

    quadjoe Senior Member

    Keeping your records clean is perhaps the single most important thing you can do: I have records that are 35-40 years old and still sound great because I have always taken the time to clean them before each playing. Money spent on record cleaning supplies is not wasted.
     
  21. John Hatter

    John Hatter Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    England
    What do you do to them before each playing ?
    Thanks
    John
     
  22. AudioEnz

    AudioEnz Senior Member

    Probably not. The turntable's not worth a lot sonically, and the cartridge was an entry level budget job from 20 years ago.

    The old Linn/Naim/Rega ideas with the source first hieracy apply here.

    Your existing cartridge on a better turtable and arm will sound a lot better than a better cartridge on your JVC.

    Think of a Project, a Rega or a second hand Linn.

    Depending on how much you want to spend, there are a lot of hi-fi dealers in the UK with a lot of knowledge of Linns who sell well set-up 2nd hand Linn Sondeks. Try ringing around a few specialists.

    If that's more than you want to spend then try a second hand (or new) Rega. The P3 and P2 have been out for a year or so, prior to that they were the Planar 2 and Planar 3. I know of no one who bought a Rega who regreted it.
     
  23. Graham Start

    Graham Start Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Yes, this brings up another point, that of varying regional cost. IMO, The Shure is hands-down the best sound for dollar in North America, but costs much more in Europe. The inverse is true of Ortofon carts, which AFAIK are reasonably priced in continental Europe (dunno about UK) but sell for much more here. I have no experience with Goldring carts as they are not easy to find here, and seem relatively expensive when listed on various online shops. But it's all worth investigating...

    As for tables, I would assume that the price difference between the Regas and the Music Hall tables would be a lot less in the UK, although I could be completely wrong.

    One other option is the Moth table; this is basically a rebranded Rega P2 which sells for considerably less -- but I don't know if these are even distributed outside of the UK. Here we have the NAD 533 to fit that slot. :)
     
  24. Vinyl-Addict

    Vinyl-Addict Groovetracer Manufacturer

    Location:
    USA
    John, I would look for a used Rega P3(In 2000 they improved the motor mounting), not the Planar 3. The P3 has a better arm in stock form, the RB-300. It has a glass platter with a felt mat as opposed to an MDF(I believe) platter on the P2.
    If you can find a used one with a Rega cart. on it, you won't need to adjust VTA. If you have to use a cart. other than a Rega, make sure you have someone set it up the 1st time around and watch how it's done, it's really simple to do.
    As far as cleaning records, I am of the belief that if you clean the LP good once with a record cleaning solution such as the "Record Doctor" sells and place it in a brand new poly inner sleeve, and finally store the LP and outer jacket in a sealable outer, only a light dusting prior to playing the LP may be required. I use an audioquest brush.:)
     
  25. quadjoe

    quadjoe Senior Member

    I hope we don't get too far off topic here because some people will disagree with what I do, but that's ok with me, so here goes:

    For excessively dirty records that I buy from eBay or flea markets, I use LAST Power Cleaner or I use one of the LAST brushes with 1 quart of distilled water mixed with 2 drops of Kodak Photo-Flo wetting agent. I "scrub" in a circular pattern with the grooves (never across) and then rinse with plenty of distilled water and allow the record to thoroughly air-dry.

    For new vinyl I have used the Discwasher system for nearly 30 years with excellent results, the fluid is made to remove the mold release compounds from the vinyl without damaging the record.

    Then, before each playing, I use a carbon fiber brush to remove any dust. I am very careful handling my records, and store them carefully, so they don't really need wet cleaning methods that often, but if I haven't played a record in a couple of years I will do a wet cleaning.

    I also treat records with LAST record preservative, which helps prevent wear (according to the manufacturer) and stabilizes the vinyl for 10 years or 200 plays.

    Now, there are some other very fine products which some of the others will recommend, no doubt. In fact, I have heard great praise for Disc Doctor products on this forum, and I think I will be trying that in the very near future. There are also some very excellent machines which you may consider as well (I can't afford to spend $700 or so for a record cleaning machine, so I plan to do without).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine