Help me understand Headphone Amps

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by dennis1077, Aug 19, 2018.

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  1. dennis1077

    dennis1077 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I've owned and loved a Project Head Box 2 for several years. It offers quite an improvement over the headphone jack in my stereo receiver.

    When I adjust treble and bass on my receiver, it has no effect on the sound when listening through the headphone amp. It got me wondering about HOW a headphone amp works. I realized that I have NO IDEA what's going on!

    Does a headphone amp operate independently of the receiver? I assumed that since it's physically hooked up to the receiver, the Head Box would merely be an extension of my system. It appears that it's completely bypassing the circuitry of the actual receiver. Is this an accurate understanding?
     
  2. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    I would guess you must have the headphone amp connected to the receiver outputs for tape. Treble and bass controls affect the signal out to the speakers and the receiver's own headphone output, not a every signal out.
     
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  3. dennis1077

    dennis1077 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I DO have it connected to the outputs for tape! It was the only option on my receiver with adequate connections. What outputs do people typically use with headphone amps?

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    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  4. Galactus2

    Galactus2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    Aux in/out here on my amp. That way, I can also jack IN a portable media player (iPod, etc.) and take advantage of the headphone amp’s amp, if that makes sense.

    The ‘amps’ on iPhones and similar media players are really wimpy, IMO, and could use a boost.
     
  5. Tim Lookingbill

    Tim Lookingbill Alfalfa Male

    Location:
    New Braunfels, TX
    Can you describe the sound differences or what you consider an improvement in sound?

    Between listening through my headphones on my Mac Mini vs my '72 Sansui 2000A receiver/amp's headphone output, the Sansui has a more rounded fuller/softer bass when treble/bass adjusts are set flat or no attenuation. For instance on my Mac Mini with no software sound enhancements IOW played flat, a CD of music that has bass and trap set of drums, the hit of the snare drum is punchier with a bit more room reverb echo and the pluck of the bass guitar is more detailed but less of a broad or warm softness as the Sansui.
     
  6. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    That's what I think people typically do. Whether it's called tape, rec, or aux out, it's the same. It's a flat line level signal that has not been through the amp section of the receiver. The tone controls in the receiver are typically after the amp section, on the way to the speaker outputs.
     
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  7. dennis1077

    dennis1077 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I was actually thinking about this before my post. It's so hard to DESCRIBE sound. More lively and dynamic. It seems like the guitars have more punch.

    I think part of this "better" sound has to do with my phono input. It's a budget receiver and my records do not sound as lively as I'd like. On the other hand, CDs sound absolutely amazing. When I listen through the Head Box, my records sound like I wished they did when not using headphones.

    Who knows. A headphone amp may have nothing to do with improving the sound of an inferior phono input. That's why I'm posting. I'm hoping to learn just how my stereo equipment works!
     
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  8. dennis1077

    dennis1077 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Thank you for the response! This actually cleared up another question.

    In the VERY distant future, I'd like to upgrade my amp. I've taken a liking to the Marantz PM5005. It has connections for two "recorders" that look similar to my tape input. I had ZERO idea what sort of "recorder" someone would hook up with their turntable. I had wondered if my Head Box would work in that connection and it sounds like it does!

    Great explanation of the tone controls being after the amp section. It all makes sense now!
     
  9. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    If you do desire to have volume and tone controls that affect the headphone amp, then you might look for an amplifier that has a pre-out. This is a set of line-level jacks that give you the signal after the controls, but right before the final speaker amplification.

    Sometimes there will be set of two jacks - both pre-out and amp-in, where a jumper must be connected between the two if you don't use a loop device like an equalizer. Here, you could use a Y RCA cable to split the pre-out so it also feeds your headphone amp, but then you might need a switchbox to turn off the speakers, if the amp has no "A/B/Off" speaker switch itself.

    Another type of integrated receiver that you might find useful has dual-zone RCA output. This is normally used for a separate room, you switch the remote to "zone 2", and can pick both a separate input source with it's own volume level for the other room, remote controlled from there. This type of output would allow the headphones to even hear something different than someone watching TV on the speakers, for example. I use one so I can record vinyl but listen to something else at the same time.
     
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  10. dennis1077

    dennis1077 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Thanks for the detailed reply. It's fascinating how many options exist.

    The funny thing is, I don't feel the need to adjust tone controls when listening through my headphone amp. The sound is perfect.

    On the flip side, if I listen directly through the receiver and speakers, I immediately pump up the treble and bass. I'm not sure why this is. Maybe my headphones are simply better than my speakers.
     
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  11. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    It sounds like you just prefer the sound signature of the headphones. Or they could be better.
    The barrier of entry into high end headphones is significantly lower than high end speakers and amps, so it's possible your headphones just live a little higher up the chain.
     
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  12. dennis1077

    dennis1077 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    This is it! Both my receiver and speakers are low-end/budget models (Onkyo TX-8020 and Pioneer SP-BS22 Andrew Jones speakers). However, I purposely sought out high-end headphones.

    Honestly, CDs sound amazing on my humble system. I wonder if I'm suffering from an inferior pbono input.
     
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  13. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    What does your vinyl chain look like?
     
  14. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    I don't know anything about headphone amps but had to say you have the best avatar in the forum.
     
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  15. dennis1077

    dennis1077 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    For the past 18 months it's been a Project Debut iii plugged directly into the Phono input of an Onkyo TX-8020.

    A few nights ago I added a different phono preamp to the chain. Now I have the Project Debut into an Audio-Technics AT-PEQ3 plugged into the Dock input of the Onkyo. Honestly, I didn't notice an improvement. Kind of sounds the same to me.
     
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  16. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    Yeah, like headphones vs speakers, an entry level CD player can often out perform an entry level analog chain. Nothing you have is bad by any means, but it is entry level.
    And on the phonostage, the AT one is likely functional, but generally a lateral step. Vinyl is tricky and requires big jumps and a lot of synergy to really pop. You’d probably need to budget $250-300 minimum to get the “wow” factor out of a new phonopre.

    But you’re on a great track, and have an excellent set up to really enjoy music. If you decide to dive in a little deeper, there are tons of great options at every price point. You just need to know your budget and what you are trying to accomplish.
     
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  17. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    It could be that the CD player sounds subjectively better through the receiver than the turntable does because of the stronger signal. An ordinary moving magnet cartridge might have a signal of about 4 mV. The typical phono stage raises that about 100 times. In this example that’s 0.4 V. The CD player signal might be as much as 2 V.
     
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  18. dennis1077

    dennis1077 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Thank you. I'd like to upgrade my receiver and speakers at some point....many years from now! With the exception of the phono input, it sounds great to these ears.

    Upgrading to a new phono preamp is feasible now. My budget is $200.... just a little short of that "wow" factor. I was checking out a $200 preamp by Project that I could likely own by Christmas. If it only provides a modest improvement, I'd rather save the money.
     
  19. dennis1077

    dennis1077 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    This may be why my vinyl sounds better through the headphone amp. A stronger signal from the Headbox perhaps?
     
  20. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    I'd say save it, or you could look for a few things on the used market. I went from built in to a $500 phono to a stereophile class A product. Each jump was a big financial jump, but I also think it's been some of the most notable changes in my system, including when I changed my TT.
     
  21. dennis1077

    dennis1077 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    This is solid advice. In a few years I should be able to upgrade my receiver. Think I'll just hold out until then.
     
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  22. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    Just to be crystal clear, I'm not saying that you have to spend big money for huge differences. I do think things that are one step tend to be a little better, but going up a marginal price amount can often feel like a lateral step (like your phonostage). Big jumps are where you're more likely to have a WOW factor. But keep in mind that isn't guaranteed either.
    After awhile you start to discover your "flavor/taste" and that price isn't everything. You can bounce around solid states amps for a long time in the same price range, but then get your first taste of a tube preamp or tube amp and realize you didn't need to spend more, you just needed to discover tubes because you like the tube sound. Or horns. Or planars. Or sealed subs. etc.

    As you find out if you want things to be brighter, or have a wider sound stage, or more bass, or tighter bass, or blah blah blah... that's when shopping becomes less about "what's the best I can do for X budget" and more about what's going to fit my preferences and my system. Once you're shopping for synergy and preferences I think you're on the right path to really finding gear that makes you smile.
     
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