Help with entry level system (what can I improve)?

Hello all, long time reader just joined.

My question is what can I improve (and where should I start) on my current entry level system? I am not looking to do something high end, just something that plays my vinyl well and does not break the bank. Here is what I have right now, looking for suggestions about what others would improve upon first:

Turntable - Pro-ject Carbon Debut with Ortofon 2m Red
Speakers - Cerwin Vega Re Series
Turntable goes to Kenwood KC-106 which goes to Russound R275HC Amp

Not sure I even have the correct components set up the correct way so any help and advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

without even spending any money, raising your speakers off the ground and spreading them further apart would improve the sound. Maybe you can set that up somewhere else?

A speaker upgrade would probably have the most impact though.

 

I probably cannot relocate but I can easily raise the speakers, can you tell me what I am looking for (proper height)?

I was thinking the Kenwood KC-106 was my "weak link", speakers are though huh? How much do I need to budget for a good pair? Lets just say I have $1,000.00 to play with overall, how would I best spend? I assume the turntable is good but how would I distribute funds for the other components?

Thanks for the response.

 

I agree with sakuraba, the speakers need to be setup further apart. How much depends on your listening position.

Did you setup your turntable? If so, make sure it is done properly. Theres a ton of info on setting stereos on the interweb.

 

Yes turntable should be setup properly. The cartridge came mounted, I had to adjust the azimuth a little and I did the stylus force using the "balance" method but I ordered a digital gauge to fine tune properly. To me everything sounds pretty good but I am sure it can be much better. When I get home I will use my imagination and try to map out a better location for the speakers.

I found some reasonably priced 18" high stands on Amazon, is that what I am looking for?

 

If you are considering buying new speakers you might want to consider floorstanders. Then you could use the money you were going to spend on stands on speakers.

 

I'd say those will work nicely for your speakers.

 

What you need to do is arrange to have the tweeters at ear level. If on strict budget, spend as little as possible on stands.

Add my vote to reposition the speakers elsewhere. They need more distance between, and also moved away from the rear wall.

Those are the FREE fixes, and they will make a big discernible difference.

Otherwise, you need to establish a budget; there are too many options without one. Also add my vote to speakers first. You may want to consider a subwoofer. Your pre and power amp – which can be replaced by a decent integrated later – are good enough to hang for a few years, so long as you commit to good speakers now. Don't even think of upgrading the turntable until speakers/amp are taken care of.

Can't recommend speakers without knowing your budget, music preferences and the nature of your room.

So whataya got? $ $ $

 

Speakers off the walls and distanced both from you and from each other won't cost anything and will change the sound dramatically.

 

With the speakers where they are on the pic I can imagine a muddled up, boxy, boomy sound. I wouldn't spend money on floorstanders before trying to relocate the speakers farther apart and elevating them from the floor on chairs or something. I guess you could make use of a larger portion of the room ?

I don't want to diss your speakers because I'm a Klipsch guy and got plenty of dissing on my speakers myself and understand there are a lot of CW lovers out them and you may be one of them. But I'd compare their sound to other popular brands like JBL and (maybe) Klipsch and decide for myself whether their sound is a huge improvement over your current pair. The CWs I've auditioned myself looked the part but disappointed me to no end in the sonics department.

Just my 2 cents

 

I have to agree with everyone. Your best effort and result and least cost would be to find a new place for your system within your home. Away from any rear or side walls (as much as reasonably possible), raise teeters to ear level at listening position and a good starting point would be equal distance between the speakers and your listening position. From there slight changes in the distance between the centerline of the speakers and a toe in so that the tweeters would "cross" somewhere just behind your sitting position. Everyone has a little variation and preference on that theme but it is your best starting point in my opinion.

 

Hard to say, but yes, certainly, need to raise speakers off the floor and spread wider apart. Is there another area the system can be set up? Maybe a pic or diagram of your room? I think the TT and cart are fine, likely will hold up to several iterations of improvements in other areas.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=321870 I don't know but seems like the preamp is suspect. Maybe a NAD or Rotel preamp would be better? Some folks seem to like the speakers, some dislike ... and the power amp? don't know, but it's likely not the weakest link ...

I'd say look at repositioning the system first, then get a better preamp (your TT/cart deserve a nice one). Maybe a nice integrated like http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...ntz-pm5005-stereo-integrated-amplifier/1.html would be good, and 'kill' two birds with one stone.

So there's $400 spent and maybe it'll sound great for a while (but of course there's always room for improvement!).

If things still sound not too good (or you have another chunk of cash you can get away with spending!), get other speakers ...

Maybe http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...-speaker-each-black/1.html#!specifications??? (BEWARE, the http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...reflection-series-lcr-speaker-ea-black/1.html shown here are only 2' tall !!! and made for center channel use (or micro L-R ... ).

SO THERE'S $1000 spent, and more properly set up, would, I bet, be MUCH better sounding than what you have now ...

add a powered sub later if you want more bass: http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...315-10-inch-250-watt-powered-subwoofer/1.html

 

I would try a different room. One with a rug and window treatments.

Being g near the stairs in a hallway, can't be the best. My room. Isn't ideal either, but better than where your setup is.

I bet your system wouldnt sound half bad with a good room and speakers setup correctly.

If you were to spend some money. Speakers would be the start, unless you don't have a budget for much better than you already have.

 

Thanks to all for the responses, here are answers to your questions:

Budget wise I would love to put another $1,000.00 into my system and be done (if this is possible). I would love to do the integrated that Rick58 mentioned so I would just have TT plus one other piece of equipment if that works.

Placement wise it has to be in my basement, that is the only room I can go to listen to music. I attached various pictures to show my limitations. Last picture is my idea of best placement based on everyone's advice (picture is taken while sitting where I normally would), but I need to figure out how to hide the speaker cables? Note you can see my limitations based on where I mounted my TV....

Music wise I listen to rock / heavy mostly. I have original pressings of most of the Judas Priest catalog, few original Iron Maiden pressings along with the 2014 boxset, original pressings of all of the good Metallica albums, most of the Dream Theater reissuses, original pressings of all of the Van Halen catalog, original pressings of most of the Kiss catalog (I know not exactly audiophile material), original pressings of most of the Led Zeppelin catalog, the Slayer vinyl conflict boxset and various other rock. My next plan is to collect some Beatles.

I think I need to do what you guys say about placement first and then start thinking about gear, any suggestions on how to spend the $1,000.00 would be appreciated however so I can start researching.

 

That's better placement with what you have to work with. Plus your listening to my kind of music.

Spend your money on speakers. You will hear more of an improvement with new speakers than a new amp.

 

If you are gentle you can lightly pry that door casing a touch and hide the wire behind in. I would imagine you could do mot with your fingers....don't need much room at all to hide it

 

Hang onto to the cash for now. Take some of the following advice on positioning and acoustic treatment:

Diament advice

 

Good morning!

Specifically, what model Cerwin-Vegas are yours? (there are several in that series)

Are they sealed or ported boxes?

With your set-up constraints (having to stay in that small area shown in your photos) I wouldn't change anything about your system until I did a little work on the ROOM first

The speakers you currently own already have factory installed "lifts", so theoretically Cerwin-Vega has already taken care of what they felt was a good room boundary coupling definition It's up to you to optimize their placment

The room is the most over looked and neglected of all the components in 99% of the systems I have seen and heard

I would not just put those speakers on stands simply because someone randomly suggested it; I would CONSIDER the recommendation from another Cerwin-Vega owner however

A GOOD pair of steel stands is going to cost you at least $100 bucks unless you find some on "craigslist" You may not even need or want them Experiment FIRST with milk crates or similar and see what happens with your room's response before you run out and blow money on speaker stands

Cerwin-Vegas are definitely a forward sounding loudspeaker; nothing "shy" about them For the Music you say you like to enjoy, they are a classic match

Yeah, there's "better" but in this case it's all VERY relative (to what?) and in this case, as in all cases, room/placement dependent

Don't replace them, just for the sake of it, until you have optimized their placement FIRST Then, if you do feel something is lacking consider it

In that hard room, lifting those speakers up may make things sound brighter than you care for

There is nothing wrong with Cerwin-Vegas for rocking your ass off; yeah they're "colored" but so are my JBL L100s

You have a good turntable, you have a good cartridge and your electronics are from good makers but definitely "modern" solid state so they MIGHT be a little edgy sounding compared to "better" amplification (discrete topology solid state)

All in all, for that room (HARD) with the speakers you have and the Music you like, I wouldn't change a damn thing just because you feel the need to "up grade"

Again, the most obvious thing I see in your photos that you definitely need to improve upon with your current system is your room

Get a nice looking area rug down on as much of that wood floor as possible, the thicker the better, get some more records and or books in there, anything you can do to break things up Place/attach something non-reflective to the wall immediately BEHIND your speakers, once you have finalized where they'll be in your room
You don't have to buy anything special for that treatment; a couple of nice looking, matching carpet samples with finished edges will work well

Those chairs are a big help; try moving them around as best you can (and as opposite the end of the room from the speakers as you can)

If I were you (and I am not) and I just HAD to "up grade", with the budget you have defined, I would start looking for a CLEAN, UNMOLESTED, NON HACKED Vintage Marantz receiver from the "22xx" series or similar

You don't need the monster, anything from 20 to 75 watts in that space with an old Simi Valley Marantz will blow you out of the room and the sound will be clean , clear and LOUD

If Marantz ain't your bag then any of the classics will work well, like silver face era Pioneer or KENWOOD (sleepers!), but I think an old Marantz would sound smoother in that space you have

Vintage receivers and amps come in all conditions of operation, so shop deliberately and patiently if you decide to try this route Keep your old amps as back ups if you do go Vintage just in case anything ever needs a trip to the repair shop

There is also an advantage to carefully shopping a Vintage receiver, along with the fun and quality you will get

You can always re-sell it easily if you don't like it after living with it for a while; the demand for them is high if they are in good shape

Start at the beginning and that's the room and placement Work from there before you make changes to anything hardware wise

The speakers you have, as well as your current amplification, will both likely have a tendency to err on the "too bright" side (but that is ENTIRELY A MATTER OF TASTE) This will only be exacerbated by your space After you have moved things around and do a little dampening and if you still feel something needs to be swapped out, I would start with the amplification

A "better" amp will improve things in this situation no matter what loudspeakers you inevitably wind up staying with, including the Cerwin-Vegas

Cerwin-Vegas gets kicked in the nuts a lot, like BOSE There is definitely a bias against them by many, yet somehow they've manage to survive for more than 60 years They definitely have a "presence" to them that I can understand may not be everyone's bag But let's get back to what I already mentioned; the SAME "love 'em or hate 'em" status is also shared by the JBL L100 and that's a speaker that can definitely sound like hammered sh$t with the wrong amp

If you LIKE your Cerwin-Vegas, you can (should) KEEP your Cerwin-Vegas! (at least for now until you address the room, and possibly amp, issues first)

It is also nice to see that you have a VPI record cleaning machine, smart move

Analogman

 

Definitely the last image. And don't forget to play with moving them away from the walls..
As for raising the speakers, might want to go old college route and use cinder blocks.
Cheap and you can always get rid of them later.

As for hiding the speaker wires, get yourself some cheap rubber floor runner from homedepot and run the wires under that, until you get the placement correct.

 

Yup, the more that's revealed, the more reason to treat the room first. Re-orient. Carpet!

Speakers: given your music prefs, know that those CVs are "rock-n-roll speakers" that deliver lotsa visceral impact, especially bass. Just about ANY audiophile-recommended new speaker you might replace them with will sound comparatively wimpy in bass, even if they are more accurate or spatially correct. It takes a big budget to improve all speaker characteristics, esp bass. Floorstanders or add a subwoofer. $$$

You will get a lot of encouragement here to replace your electronics, and I would disagree. Better to save money, increase the budget and upgrade the speakers before electronics.

In the meantime, treat the room, and expect a huge improvement.

 

Best Option = YES !!! I would think ... you could get some area rug(s) to run speaker cables under (and extend out in front of the speakers), there are also some 'flat' cable options but those may cost more than makes sense to spend at this point. The rugs will help dampen reflections off the floor as well, this might result in better sound. The hard floor will tend to reflect sound, which messes up the soundstaging but also reinforces modes in the room, which can muddy up the sound as well. Some bass notes will sound louder, but also tend to 'ring' and blur, even when they're supposed to 'stop'.

I'm not sure of the C-Vs design to be close to the floor, maybe that's best, but you can certainly experiment with various heights of cinder blocks etc. as was suggested. There are also other C-V floorstanding models that are very well regarded sonically (while still having that great bass response that they are known for).

(edit/PS: Check out http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/cerwinvega_cls215.htm "I think the CLS-215s compete well with many speakers costing up to $4000, making them an easy Reviewers’ Choice" !!! Well, maybe he's being a little 'enthusiastic' but still ...)

The Van Halen recordings are very well regarded in the 'audiophile' community, BTW ...! and certainly the others are likely to amaze you with newly-heard details and enjoyment with a better setup and maybe later some new gear. Having first pressings and etc. of your favorite albums = priceless. I hope our suggestions can help you get maximum enjoyment out of them.

To me, wider spreading of the speakers and close-in (nearfield) listening are where it's at ... your setup will be I think pretty much like this. Sitting about the same distance from the speakers as they are apart (forming an equilateral triangle with the speakers and listener) seems like a universal suggestion. Also play with separation, 'toe in' (pointing more or less at your head), and distance from the wall. Getting this arrangement right maximizes stereo imaging, soundstaging, etc. - things which before you hear them you may not care about - but when it sounds and 'looks' like Van Halen (the band) is playing in front of you live, it's amazing. The image of the drums will be realistic, and possibly (with this or better gear) also placed further back in the 'soundstage' like a real setup would be. Each drum, hi-hat and other cymbals will be fanned out across the central part of the 'stage' as a real set is placed. I am happy just thinking about how this will hopefully be an amazing experience for you.

 

Thanks for the well thought out responses, I plan to mess with placement this weekend and do so experimenting with different heights. I am fine with the way my speakers sound guess I just assumed my system is not up to par and needs something.... I had a forum member PM me about a pair of Thiel CS1.6 he has for sale not too far from me, might stop and take a listen at those but going to mess with my placement before doing anything.

I will get more specific info about the speakers and post also.

 

Upgrade : Room, speakers stands ( Atacama sl are great and not too expensive ), and a nice pair of headphones ! ( Grado or Sennheiser ). Room FIRST....

 

Current speakers are Cerwin Vega RE-25

• Specifications:
  • Description: 10-inch three-way
  • Frequency response: 38Hz - 20KHz
  • Power handling: 5 watts minimum, 150 watts maximum
  • Sensitivity: 95 dB (1w / 1m)
  • Nominal impedance: 6 ohms
  • LF driver VC size: 1.5-inch
  • Low frequency driver: 10-inch cast aluminum frame
  • Mid-frequency driver: 4-inch cone
  • High frequency driver: 1-inch polycarbonate dome
  • Crossover frequencies: 1 kHz, 6 kHz
  • Connections: heavy duty five-way binding posts
  • Protection: self-resetting PTC (tweeter)
  • Enclosure type: bass reflex
  • Enclosure construction: 3/4-inch composite board
  • Finish: scuff-resistant walnut vinyl