Help with first integ. amp - Primaluna v. Rogue v. Line Magnetic v. McIntosh v. Naim

@freesole is looking at the Dialogue HP, so with the stock EL34s, it's rated at 70 wpc UL/40 wpc triode.

 

I have heard the Primaluna with B&W 805 D2's and it made a lasting impression.

 

You are correct!

 

I had been a Naim guy for over 25 years (getting my first item, the Nait 1) when I was still in high school. I was a religious zealot through the olive years, but simply fell away from it once it moved from olive to black. I WANTED to love it, but it lost something along the way. My last item was the Nait XS2 into Rega Rx5’s. A clean, competent combination - but just didn’t have the magic the olive gear did. I listened to the superNait 2, and with my speakers and source (LP12) and didn’t think it was worth the extra over the Nait XS2. YMMV.

I have always liked Rega as well, and think the Brio R is great (I have one). And I’ve heard the new Elex (which i thought was just great at $1500). I’d not heard the new Elicit tho.

I have the Leben CS300XS now, an EL84 based integrated, which is the single best integrated I have ever heard. It’s about $4000 new. I have heard it compared dirdctly to the $5000 Accuphase Integrated (e-270, i think) on a number of speakers, and I thought it was clearly better on all, save the one pair that was just too difficult for the Leben to drive (it is only 15 watts per channel). I replaced my Naim Nait XS-2 with the Leben . . . So you can obviously see how I compared those two.

I have heard on MANY occasions the two Line Magnetic amps in the OP’s price limit, and thought both excellent, though voiced differently to my Leben. Ultimately I liked the Leben better. I continue to cover the LM219, however. But that’s $7500.

The Prima Luna amplifiers seem to me like they would sound pretty good. But I don’t like the way they look (the LM stuff is not my cup of tea).

I think so much of this comes down to synergy with his speakers, with which I am unfamiliar unfortunately.

Judd

 

OK, that is what I hoped that you might say. Many tower speakers are not voiced for tubes and consequently, tubes don't really bring anything to the table with them. I have two pair of front mains, Zu Omen Definition's and Polk LSiM707's. I would not even think of running the Polk's off of tube amplification, only SS. They are run with a 250-Watt (into 8-ohns), 72-lb. SS power amplifier. The Zu's sound like crap with SS, so I am running them with the Prologue Five, with it's KT88's.

Your Ascend Acoustics towers are in another class by themselves. They do benefit from tube amplification. I noted that you stated that you have the RAAL tweeters in you center channel speaker. If you have them in your towers also, tube amplification will help you there as well.

You can buy one of the discontinued KT88, Prima Luna Prologue Five's for $1,189.00, see this link. They used to retail for $1,800 but have been discontinued in favor of the new Prologue Premium, which is $2,200. The Premium is just a dressed up Five. Here is the specific information on the Five.

One suggestion that I might offer your way is to buy one of these. You can't beat the price and you can use it as a power amp, powered by the preamp section in your Anthem AVR, and you will know whether or not you like tubes or SS. Afterward, you can just keep using it, keep it as a back-up. I always do recommend a back up when using a tube amp, in case your main amp is in the shop. Once these few remaining silver face Fives are gone, there will be no more and the Five will hold it's value for a long time to come. You can't buy a leading brand like PL for prices like a no-name Chinese amplifier.

I own this amp, and used it for almost a year to drive my highly efficient A7's, which I only needed a few watts to do. I pulled it off of the A7's because I purchased three other tube amps this year. An Audio Note Kit Amp (excellent), a Line Magnetic 211iA (excellent) and a Line Magnetic 518iA (END GAME!), which I am running now as a power amp for the A7's.

This would be an important step for you for two reasons. One, you will get to see if you prefer tubes over SS and two, is this enough tube power for your Ascend Acoustics towers?

My opinion is, yes, you should have more than enough power, as you have indicated how you listen to them. I think that you would be happy running them at even half that power, with a tube amp.



I want to make a comment here. With amplifier's the amount of Watts is not as important as the quality of an amps power supply.

Here is a straight power amp, nothing else, produces only 36-Watts and weighs 37.5 lbs.

If you had a SS amplifier that was rated at 36-Watts, how much do you think it would weigh? I don't know, but it would not be very much!

The difference is that the power supply and the transformer's make a tube amplifier what it is, it is not some mystic thing that you hear called "tube Watts", a Watt is a Watt, whether it is SS or tubes. It is the power supply in either that make the difference.

Here is a YouTube video with Kevin Deal speaking about the Prologue Five.



If you find that you do like SS, you might as well stick with your Anthem, you will be surprised how close it is going to sound to a SS McIntosh.

You may find that you like the PL Five with KT88's or, because it has "Adaptive Autobias", you can simply remove them and replace them with a quad of either new manufacturer EL34's or NOS EL34's, or you could try KT77's. For under $1,200, you can try all of these things!

Here is my "End Game" amp. the Line Magnetic 518iA, and by the way, there is absolutely no issue with their US distributor. Buy with confidence!



One of the forum's most highly regarded members is @GoldprintAudio, who also happens to be an authorized Line Magnetic dealer.

The black amp in the photo is the 508iA and the 518iA is behind it, on the right. I have a feeling that one or the other of these amps may be an "End Game" amp for you and your Ascend Acoustics.



Consider picking up one of the PL Five's and checking out the world of tubes. That will let you know where your future lies.

 

Good observations. I had olive Naim 62>HiCap>90 for awhile. Most "addictive" sound I've ever had in my home.

Best system I ever heard, probably, was an LM CD deck>Leben CS300>DeVore O/93's. Way outta my league price-wise, sadly. EL84's are my fave tube for guitar amps, interestingly. My Marshall 1974x is ... 15 watts ...

If someone burgled my XS2, FlatCap XS etc., I'd strongly consider replacing with the current-model Rega Brio. 'Cheap', as these things go, but ... wonderful.

 

@SandAndGlass Thank you very much for the detailed response. Some great input there and I really appreciated your thoughts. I do love my Ascend Acoustic Sierra's. They punch way above their price point. I actually auditioned them at home next to Focal Aria 936's and these won out. Anyway, I look forward to seeing what a proper integrated amp can do with these speakers. Anthem makes a great product and my current system sounds great so I do find myself wondering if McIntosh would be an upgrade. Couldn't hurt doing an audition with Crutchfield as an option I suppose.

Anyway, it sounds like you love your LM508 and 518. I have heard nothing but great things about the LM. Can't wait to hear them in action. Do you happen to know if they can support a HT bypass function through the "pre-in"?

 

Thanks for the response. Interesting to hear your thoughts on the XS 2 vs the SuperNait 2. Quite a difference in pricing too (talking about $2k). I only heard the XS 2 but I was impressed with the clarity and the level of dynamics in the output. My wife actually liked the Naim XS 2 more than the Primaluna Prologue. It is a matter of preference I suppose.

I actually love the look of the Primaluna but I totally get it. I like what I hear about the Decware but I'm not a fan of the looks there.

 

Has anyone heard the Audio Research VSI75? Thoughts?

 

PL vs Naim: both have a powerful and dynamic sound. I found them to be very different sounding with my speakers at the time, but note that a small difference in a quick comparison will end up being a major difference in long term listening.

Ultimately I moved on to Line Magnetic and now Audio Note because I listen for timbre/tone color above all else, and neither the PL nor the Naim is very strong at that IMO. Perhaps I should have tried NOS tubes in the PL. With Naim (XS and 5i) I admired the rhythmic drive and clear "organization" of the music but ultimately it kept sounding a bit mechanical and artificial to my ears. FWIW I mostly play recordings from the 50s through 70s.

 

Well one big issue is that, unlike AVRs, hardly any stereo units allow you to properly connect the subwoofer. Some have a "subwoofer" output, but no way to actually highpass the signal to the mains which is idiotic. This means that instead of gaining dynamic range, the main amp and speakers still strain to put out the lowest bass, which is not the point of a .1 system. So look at the specs of those equipment carefully. If they don't have pre-out/main in jacks they probably won't work how you want. As someone noted, maybe consider power amp instead of integrated, using your Anthem as a pre if it has the requisite outputs, or get the Parasound unit.
I did spend quite a bit of time with Primaluna at Upscale Audio and liked those units (one room was integrated, the other pre+power).

 

I A/B'ed a Primaluna Prologue against a Rogue CMII with my dealer. While it wasn't the Dialogue as the OP is interested in, the important lesson was that Rogue and Primaluna have very, very different sounds. I had a strong preference for the CMII and mine has only sounded sweeter and sweeter with careful tube rolling. The Rogue does have a very "precise" sound, which definitely repels some folks because it might come across to them as analytic and/or fatiguing compared to a more traditional tube sound. I get and respect their opinion there, but the CMII is a great fit for my system and my listening preferences, especially with some NOS tubes.

The lesson is that you will find the sound you're looking for in one of the amps you're interested in (or even another), but you'll only really know once you have a chance to compare them.

Given your price point and current list of options, you may also consider looking at options from Raven or Jolida.

 

OP, I have a LM-508IA. Feel free to send me a PM with any questions you might have about it.

I don't have the experience of having heard the other models you listed, though.

Keep in mind you do have the option of getting a 240V version of the LM and simply having an electrician install an appropriate power socket for it. At half the price, it's certainly something to consider. It would've cost me 6K (Canadian dollars) to buy the 120V version of that amp but I got away with paying 3K for the same thing, except it working on 240V instead. I'd gladly do it again if I had to get another one. 3K buys a *lot* of LPs.

 

Or you could just wait for 120V secondhand one to come up for sale, which will be around $3,500. I think there are a few for sale right now. Then no electrician needed.

 

Theoretically though, could I not keep the sub connected to my AVR for the times where I plan to use it for movies/netflix? For stereo music listening times, I guess I would have liked for the 2 front speakers + sub to be working together but I don't mind having only the sub. I guess I avoid this with the Primaluna though, as it has both HT bypass and sub-out.

 

Yes, I have seen a few and am in discussions with one of them. $3,500 or so but this is without HT bypass, headphone amp, sub-out. The Primaluna is $4,395 and it includes all of those features. Close one.

 

it can't just be a socket, can it?

 

Thank you sir. I may take you up on the offer for advice via pm Curious about whether the 508ia has the ability to do HT bypass. I couldn't find anything concrete online.

 

It has to be a socket which uses 240V. An electrician will relay it to your panel, combining two circuits of 120V to make 240V, just like one would for an electric dryer appliance.

You're forgetting I'm in Canada. 2nd-hand ones always appear in the US. Converting $3500 US and adding 13% tax for bringing it into the country totals 5130$ CDN which is 2100$ CDN more than using my method.

 

I don't know much about that stuff. I thought you had to use a step down transformer.

 

It's one way to do it but not all transformers are built equally and a lot of them can introduce hum into your sound. My philosophy is to keep the circuit as short as possible (fewest hops). Best to leave an extra transformer out of it and just have it running natively in its properly voltage while connected to directly to the panel, IMHO.

Cost me about 120$ for an electrician to combine the circuits and install the dedicated socket.

 

Tone Imports

 

I have heard the PL and Rogue compared to a LM 218 and 518 running Devore speakers. I bought the 518 at my local dealer.

I contacted Tone Imports a couple times before going to audition and they were prompt and courteous in their replies to me despite my many questions. No issues with Tone Imports for me.

 

Prima Luna and Nait?!! you couldn't get two more different amps, get out there and listen, but I love my Prologue 2, 12 years old and still faultless

 

How often have you had to retube it?