Help with first integ. amp - Primaluna v. Rogue v. Line Magnetic v. McIntosh v. Naim

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by freesole, Oct 7, 2018.

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  1. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Avanti, I came across a couple of older posts of yours (actually one older and one newer) and find your observations with regard to the Rogue Cronos Magnum to be very interesting! I am assuming these observations were made with your Harbeth C7ES-3 (noting that you do have a JL Audio D110 sub, which I am assuming is an addition to your system and not part of your speaker amplifier evaluations).

    My background. Never owned tube amps. Used SS amps all my like. Been hearing all the "buzz" about tubes and decided, that if I might be able to get hold of a Rogue Atlas, for $800-$900 used, then I might have the opportunity to see for myself.

    I went looking on eBay. No Atlas, but a pair of Rogue M-120 monoblock's were running, with not much activity. I jumped in at the last minute an won the auction for $1.350 plus shipping and with all new tubes! I was so excited, by background had been in receiver's, AVR's, integrated's and power amps, but no monoblock's. I really never even imagined owning a pair of monoblock amplifier's, ever!

    They just arrived. This is April of 2013, getting to put the new quad of JJ Tesla KT88's in them.

    [​IMG]

    Here they are, an hour later, sitting on two subs, behind the TV (there was no place else to put them).

    [​IMG]

    In 2014, two of the KT88's in one monoblock failed, causing that amp to fail. This was not bad news as I as warned that this might happen. Previous to this, I had a conversation with Mark O, Brian, designer of the Rogue amplifier's and the President of the company. When the tubes failed, I would be sending these back to their factory and have them upgraded. These were fine amps but they had some age on them and were getting a bit long in tooth. They were serial numbers 102 &103.

    It took me two to three months to decide on the upgrade that I wanted to do. During that time I did a lot of reading up on the two different upgrade options that were available to me. Upgrade to the M-150's or the M180's? The 150's were KT88 based like the M-120 that I had now, The M-180's are KT-120 based.

    THe M-120 were more linear and powerful than the KT88's. But I really liked the sound of my M-120's with their KT88's, so I decided to upgrade to the M-150 monoblock's. Besides with the super efficient A7's, I already have so much more power than I would ever need.

    I have a PL Prologue Five, which is KT88 based and is rated at 36-WPC It is nice and well behaved. I don't know which PL you were auditioning, but I figuring that the Harbeth's do like more power to really do their thing.

    What LM were you listening to? I would have to say that it was the speakers and the room. I have the 211iA with KT77's and the 518iA which is a 845 tube based SET, with 22-WPC. Neither have exaggerated midbass and neither are rolled off.

    For me, Mac's are nice sounding amps, more transparent and neutral, vintage tube Mac's are different, but the SS ones that I have listened to, mostly sound the same to me.

    I am a Rogue guy all the way, but I don't think that I would like this amp at all. I believe that one of the other members had one and his opinion was similar to yours.

    For the 3-4 months that my monoblock's were down, I ran the A7's with SS amp, it was powerful and good, but it wasn't tubes. After a got the M-150's. I realized that I didn't want to be without tubes ever again on the A7's.

    With that in mind, I found and bought a CM I on eBay, right before the II came out. I thought it was a nice sounding powerful amp. Sounding close to the same as the M-150 monoblocks, running in ultralinear mode, but for half the price as the monoblock's.

    It is a very impressive, very linear amp. It was bought as a back up amp at the time, so I put the M-150's back on line and it has been sitting quietly since that time.

    Here is the part that I find interesting. From my experience Both of these Rogue's are big and they are bad and they are very nice sounding, but I never thought them as being "sweet, so this is interesting to me. If the CM can sound sweet as in class "A" like, than the M-150's should sound that way also.

    Because, I have acquired ten more tubes amps since then, I have not lit up either of these amps since 2014.

    This looks like something interesting to look into further.

    I do get the impression, that your Harbeth's really need some power to preform.
     
  2. swvahokie

    swvahokie Forum Resident

    The big reason the Rogues sound much different from the Primalunas are the output transformers. Check out these two reviews by Stereophile...

    Rogue Audio Stereo 100 power amplifier Measurements
    PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium power amplifier Measurements

    I have heard both companies amps several times and like them both, but you have to be careful when matching the Primaluna due to the high output impedance. They could sound great on a particular speaker, or they could sound terrible. The numbers show the Rogue has the better output transformers and will not function as a tone control. The frequency response on the Rogue will be much more linear, not quite solid state levels, but definitely not the old tubey type sound. If you long for the old tubey sound, the Primalunas will get you there. If you want a more modern sound but with most of the tubes goodness, it is Rogue you want. Me, I fall in the Rogue camp, but I have heard Primaluna sound very good.
     
    bluemooze, jphabc54 and SandAndGlass like this.
  3. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    The Prologue 5 is also an older model- they've been improved since then. The DiaLogue HP amps are quite a bit different- twice the power, twice the number of driver tubes, and other improvements.
     
  4. swvahokie

    swvahokie Forum Resident

    I last heard a Primaluna in September. I like them, but they still do not have Rogues output transformers. They remain an amp I could live with if they are paired with a speaker that zigs when they zag. I think they are a bargain at their price if paired well. If I upgraded to a tube amp tommorrow, I would buy a Rogue CM11 site unseen, knowing it would sound very good on my current speakers. I would not buy a Primaluna without the ability to audition it at home and the ability to return them. That being said, my current speakers are very easy to drive, and the Primalunas could sound better than the Rogue on them. All bets are off if I were to change speakers though.
     
  5. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I think that you are very spot on with your assessments. In tube amplifier's iron is everything. While it does have to be put into prospective, look at the weight on the PL's. My Rogue M-150's weigh 55-lbs each. One monoblock weighs more that a PL integrated.

    The Rogue's are more liner. Mark O'Brian make this comment during a Positive Feedback ISSUE 36 interview, with Chip Stern, back in 2008.

    As I had upgraded my M-120' to the M-150's, I too noted this change.

    "
    And so when I first began using the new Rogue M-150 monoblocks, the most telling of my first impressions was how much cooler these new amps ran than the M-120s, and as a result, how well they held their bias and how stable and rock-solid the long-term operation of the amps were—and how the M-150's performance parameters had much more in common with Rogue's flagship, no-compromise Zeus power amp, than the M-120s. Ironically enough, given my earlier sense of their solid-state attributes, the M-120s performance seemed more palpably tube-like by comparison with the more powerful, more linear new generation of M-150 amplifiers.

    "That's an interesting observation, Chip, and I wouldn't disagree with you," Mark O'Brien reflected during our phone interview, "and I don't know why that is, frankly. The distortion figures for both amps measure quite well and are well below what we understand to be audibility. So why one sounds a little bit more lush and tube-like, I don't know. What I do know is that the M-150 is definitely a more transparent, dynamic, powerful amp.

    "Don't get me wrong, there are an awful lot of happy M-120 owners out there," O'Brien points out. "And if I bought last year's Corvette, I would be surprised if it weren't in some ways better than the one I owned. So it's an evolutionary process, and frankly you come out with quite different designs every once in a while, and that's what happened here.

    Although the bass and the amplifier is tighter and more linear, I do miss the rich, soft enveloping bass of my M-120's.

    The big Rogue's have their own sound, and I have that sound in my current collection of tube amps. I also have their Stereo 90, which is wonderful sounding, I just have some hum issues (bought it used) and it is out of the system until I can return it to Rogue for service.

    There are people who need this kind of power to effectively drive their speakers.

    From my post, #30 in this thread, "Here is my "End Game" amp. the Line Magnetic 518iA, and by the way, there is absolutely no issue with their US distributor. Buy with confidence!" where there is a photo of the LM 518iA. This is only a 22-Watt amp, but it has the the most iron that I could possibly imagine for an output that small. A large part of that is the 845 output tubes that are class "A" SET's have a plate voltage of around 1,000V and a lot of iron is necessary. This integrated/power amp weighs 77-lbs. I retired to my amp storage shelf and could barely find the strength to lift it up and put it on the shelf.

    I replaced it with a more manageable size amp. A 3.9-Watt dual mono 6V6GT based Decware Mini Torii and it is working out fine for me and I am quite pleased with its abilities, running in pure class "A" as a single ended pentode.

    [​IMG]

    This amp has the refinement of a SET and the guts of class A/B and can deliver real strong bass at low volume levels and can really do some justice with highly efficient speakers.
     
    bluemooze likes this.
  6. swvahokie

    swvahokie Forum Resident

    I do believe those A7’s qualify as “highly efficient “.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  7. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I don't know if you have seen this yet, and it's not about the CMII, but it is an interesting new review of the Rogue Stereo 100 power amp, which also has KT-120 power tubes. This review came out in Stereophile, just three days ago. And, B.T.W., Harbeths are in the review.

    Rogue Audio Stereo 100 power amplifier

    [​IMG]

    And, I'm not giving anything else away...
     
    bluemooze likes this.
  8. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Interesting path S&G!
    I think my CMII sounds sweet because of the preamp tube (Amperex Holland Treble Clef Logo) . It makes all the difference in the world. I am looking towards my next upgrades which may include the Rogue RP5 preamp, an amazingly nice sounding unit.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  9. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Thanks, yes I saw the article and also commented! The Stereo 100 was a part of the best sound I have ever heard bar none. No doubt it will be rated class A by Stereophile at the end of the year.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  10. swvahokie

    swvahokie Forum Resident

    Very hard, if not impossible to beat for the money. I have heard better, but that stuff's price
    could have passed for my zip code. I will never own the stuff. Its for CEO's.
     
    avanti1960 likes this.
  11. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    When it comes to quality and powerful tube amps, I don't think anyone comes close at the prices that Rogue offers their amplifier's for.
     
  12. freesole

    freesole Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    This thread is dangerous. I am really enjoying the Primaluna at this moment but at this moment, I can't help but wonder if I am missing something from the LM 805ia. Maybe it's just that magical quality that is so hard to describe. Need to give the PL a little more time I think.

    I now have the PS Audio Directstream Junior DAC/Pre-amp. Would this preamp pair ok with the Rogue Audio Stereo 100?
     
  13. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    With the Rogue Stereo 100, you'll also need a preamp to control volume and handle input switching.

    I know there have been some PrimaLuna detractors here, but let me point out the the DiaLogue HP integrated is also Stereophile Class A rated.

    At the end of the day, the important thing is that you are happy, not what anyone else thinks on any forum.
     
  14. swvahokie

    swvahokie Forum Resident

    I actually like Primaluna. Would love to hear them in my setup at home. I
    Didn't mean to come off as a Primaluna hater, I actually like them. They are just different to a Rogue. I have both local to me, so I have heard both several times. My Primaluna dealer would let me try out the amp at home if I were in the market. After buying my P6, Sutherland phono, and Castle speakers in the last 15 months, I am afraid my stereo buying fund is a tad low right now.
     
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  15. IGD Positive

    IGD Positive Forum Resident

    Location:
    Inner groove
    I'm not commenting on the quality either way but the PL DiaLogue Premium HP power amp weighs 66.3 pounds and can be used in a monoblock setup.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  16. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    As has been previously mentioned, with a straight power amp like the Rogue Stereo 100, you need to have a preamp to control your input selection and adjust the volume of the signal that is being delivered to the power amp.

    It just so happens that one of our members was offering his preamp and power amp for sale on the forum. The power amp has been sold but the Adcom GFP-565 preamp is still available for $399

    Adcom: GFP-565 / GFA 545II

    [​IMG]

    Another member commented on the quality of the built-in phono preamp.

    The original list was $798. Stereophile did a review on this preamp a few years back.

    Adcom GFP-565 preamplifier

    If you are considering a preamp/poweramp combination, this might work for you. I think that it would be a good match for the Stereo 100.

    As a note. I own the KT88 based Stereo 90, the previous model and a Cronos Magnim I, integrated with KT-120 power tubes.

    The Stereo 100 is kind of a cross between them.
     
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  17. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I have a smaller KT88 PL Prologue Five. I like PL, but when it comes to raw power, Rogue is difficult to beat. They tend to be a more forward amp. Kind of a tube replacement for a SS amp. I like PL and I kike many other amps, both new and vintage. Both tube and SS.

    The PL's that I have heard tend to be more reserved. Not that there is anything wrong worth that.

    It all comes down to how much power you want, the speakers that you are driving and what kind of sound signature you are looking for.

    I will be getting back to my 3.9-Watt SEP...
     
    IGD Positive likes this.
  18. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    what tubes in your HP?
     
  19. freesole

    freesole Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Stock EL34s. Haven’t changed a thing yet.
     
  20. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    i'm going to suggest that the EL34s aren't powerful enough to get your speakers to sound as lively as they could. not talking about volume so much as speed, attack and dynamics. not a horrible match but far from optimum.
     
    Musician95616 likes this.
  21. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Agreed. The LM 805iA is going to be a lot more dynamic than an EL34 based amplifier. I think that EL34's sound best in power or integrated amps in the 30-Watt range.

    I also don't particularly care for running two quads of tubes in any amplifier to get more power. Tubes are expensive, why go there. If you do need more power than go with a more powerful tube amp that is KT88 based or KT-120 based in the first place. Go with an amp that you can run a single quad of tubes.

    The more tubes you have playing, the more trouble and expense you are asking for.
     
    tlowe likes this.
  22. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    I'd normally agree with you. Not so with PrimaLuna's adaptive auto bias. There's a post above where the poster is on the original tubes- 12 years later. It isn't hard on tubes. Won't kill a resistor or two when the tubes go- Rogues will. It's well documented, and they are far from the only ones. Want the joy of driving a vintage British sports car without the headaches? That's the audio equivalent of Prima Luna. Rogue (solid state sounding tube gear, why?) is a Miata.

    More tubes mean the tubes aren't driven as hard. Your suggestion will have a higher cost of ownership in tubes alone- guaranteed. Possibly in repair expense too. I've been there. No thanks.

    The DiaLogue HP series amps have twice the number of tubes so that the tubes aren't stressed. It doesn't sound like what you'd expect from EL34s. It's not the same animal.

    Any other EL34 amp that I've ever had that could do KT88s, I'd switch pretty much immediately. Not so with the PrimaLuna HP. It sounds like the good parts of EL34s and the good parts of KT88.

    From what I understand, it sounds best with KT120s and 150s. I might try one of the two one day, but from someone who doesn't normally love the EL34, I'm in no rush.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  23. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    OP
    You have a list of very different sounding amplifiers from reputable brands - so giving advice comes down to other people's experiences in different rooms and not on your particular loudspeakers.

    Fortunately your speakers are fairly easy to drive.

    With lower powered SET amps - when over driven they can sound overly thick and muddy so people's opinions of the amps shift to the fact they are being run into distortion.

    My dealer in Hong Kong carries Rogue Audio, Line Magnetic and Melody Valve Audio. When comparing the Cronus Magnum II to the LM 211 to a Melody MK88 to my then Audio Space Mini 2SE all in and around the same price you still can't make totally fair comparisons because the tubes are different (in terms of tube type and quality(manufacturer of the specific tube).

    I gave the edge to the LM 211 BUT only on smaller music - vocals and ambiant cues - a breathy valve quality - but then if you are not buying a tube amp for this attribute what is the point of buying a tube amp? My Mini 2SE actually came in last place because what it was doing was plumping up the midrange and after living with the 219IA for 6 months and then going back to the PP EL34 was practically unlistenable to me.

    Though the LM 211 is also a Push Pull EL34 it didn't have that overly fat midrange sound.

    I preferred the 218/219/5xx series amps over Rogue or Melody integrated amplifiers. in the same price range - but interestingly enough I prefer the Rogue and Melody lines for separates. The one Melody's preamp I auditioned with the LM 219IA was very VERY underrated and turned a good 219IA integrated into a stunning power amp. The preamp stage in ALL of the integrated amps mentioned is IMO the weakspot.

    Even Prima Luna - they like to tout the Alps Blue volume pot - this is used in the LM amps and perhaps the other ones. I remember talking to Peter Qvortrup about Alps and he dislikes them - they are used only in very entry level AN preamps and integrated as a cost savings measure. And this is perhaps why some of the integrate amps when used as power amps are so vastly improved when you get a quality preamp.

    Of course it's easy to say something is not as good if comparing to very expensive products.

    What I would first try to do is see which integrated amplifiers from your list have the ability to be used as a power amp - thus has pre in or direct in options. This way - down the line you can upgrade your amp. Otherwise your upgrade path in the future means you have to sell the amplifier (and likely take a huge loss) and you have to come up with a LOT more money to then buy a preamp and power amp. If you have direct in then 5 years down the line you buy a really awesome preamp and your integrated can still be used and likely sound a LOT better.

    Some of the The Line Magnetic amps have pre in. So perhaps check into Rogue Cronus MII and Melody and the others on your list. You don't want preouts. That means the amp operates as a preamp - and this is the weak spot in integrateds.

    The problem you have is that the LM amps are significantly lower in power although they don't necessarily sound lower in power - comparing the LM 219IA on hard to drive ATC SCM 150 speakers the 219IA had far better and deeper bass control than the Rogue Cronus which sounded washed out, thin and somewhat sterile. So even though the power rating is 4 times the 219IA the result sounded the complete opposite. This is no knock on the Rogue though as it was just outmatched in direct back to back comparisons to a more expensive amps with much better quality transformers. The 211 is more in the Magnum II arena.

    Ultimately - all of the budget tube amps have some weaknesses - but since you already have a SS amp you get SS sound. I personally would lean to something that is more materialistically valve sounding (without going too over the edge like a Jolida 302). Thus, I lean more to Melody and Line Magnetic over the Rogue. But I lean to the Rogue if you want you amp to have more sparkle and snap on transients. Melody and LM IMO are better at decay and tone and timbre - so if I were listening to female vocals (Eva Cassidy, Loreena McKennitt, Sade, Ella) and smokey lounge singer like stuff from Beth Hart/Joe Bonamassa and a lot of piano and cello - I would probably go for Melody or LM. But if I listen to more modern rock, house, hip hop - at high levels on "modestly sensitive speakers" like yours I would probably go with the Rogue. The Rogue will probably run more speakers.

    And perhaps most importantly - in Rogue's favour is that 1) it will probably be the easiest to resell should you not like it or wish to upgrade - and if in the US - will have the easiest time to repair as it has more dealers.

    So for me it tilts my preference for Rogue a bit more especially given your speakers.
     
    Bananas&blow and freesole like this.
  24. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    I agree with the majority of this post.

    The volume pot used in the PrimaLuna is $50, so it's not a cheap part. I'd hope AN has a better part considering their prices.

    Rogue? I've owned one. The build quality isn't PrimaLuna. Changing inputs? The Rogue feels cheap and fragile. The PrimaLuna is a bit odd because it clicks (amp, not speakers) because it uses relays as opposed to a mechanical switch.

    I still contend the PrimaLuna will be the most reliable with the lowest ownership cost.

    And I can't tell you how happy I am with how it sounds. I did change the input tubes from stock though.

    Resale? Don't trade a Rogue tube amp to Upscale. They already have a collection.
     
    freesole likes this.
  25. freesole

    freesole Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Always good to hear both perspectives. It is still a little early for me to judge the PL yet. In no way has the unit disappointed but from what I remember, the LM had a bit of a wow factor that I find hard to discount. I don't remember if you told me already but if I may ask, what was your tube change to the input tubes?
     
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