Hi-res digital vinyl Rip.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Cyrille.A, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Cyrille.A

    Cyrille.A New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    Hello Everyone,

    I would like to rip a big part of my vinyl collection. But I would like to do it the best way it is possible to.

    First of all I will clean my Vinyl with an ultrasonic cleaner, i just test that this week end and it is just astonishing...

    Then is the process to record all that the best way I could! (money is the key here)
    I will need to buy a good turntable with good Cartridge.
    I think about clearaudio MM concept, that will be upgrade later with an Hana EL EC Cartridge.
    This will be conected to a M2 Tech Joplin MK2 converter wich can convert analog signal into 32 bits / 384 kHz through USB. It also has some filter wich can modify equalisation, as before RIAA equalisation standard, every record company use a differnet one, more than 20 of them are already sets in this converter..

    Then I would record it on my computer with Audacity... (here i am not really sure) ... is audacity recorder good enough?, do i need a better computer soundcard?
    Maybe i should use an external audio recorder before importing it to Audacity . I already own a rolland R-05 recorder wich can record up to 24 bits /96 KHz.

    So what do you think of this, do you have any other idea, how would you do this?
     
  2. Synthfreek

    Synthfreek Please label the photos you post

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I'm really confused about your mentioning of both the Joplin ADC AND either a soundcard or external audio recorder. Why would you need anything more than just the Joplin?
     
  3. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    Yeah, that doesn't sound right. When you connect the Joplin, the computer will see it as soundcard and allow you to record as an input.

    Audiacity is fine. It's what most people used mostly because it's free and anything else just makes things complicated. Sure you can use something more elaborate, but they would only add features you don't need like multi-channel mixing. I will state that will probably want to use declicking software like Grove Mechanic, Wave Corrector, or ClickRepair.
     
  4. Cyrille.A

    Cyrille.A New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    OK, i didn't know that the computer would seen the Joplin as an external soundcard... so yes no need for another feature, which is best. That's why i mentiones another soundcard or external recorder, thanks for this precision.
    I don't know abut eclicking software either... is one of those you mentionned better that the others?
     
  5. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    Yeah, the Joplin is a ADC, you will still need a DAC to edit. The on-chip soundcard will supply that. All modern CPU include it.

    Regarding Declick software, I believe Groove Mechanic and Wave Corrector are free. ClickRepair costs money, but I think it has a free trial period. I've only used ClickRepair, it is simple to use. But considering the others are free, I would recommend trying them out.
     
  6. Cyrille.A

    Cyrille.A New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    What do you mean by I still need a DAC to edit? For now click repairs seems to be best than wave corrector.
    Do you use only automatic features?
     
  7. vinylsolution

    vinylsolution Forum Resident

    Location:
    Denver, CO, USA
    Try it with both the computer capture and recording to the Roland unit and compare your results.
    The ADC chip in your Roland may be fine and you would be taking an enormously un-needed, multi-tasking, potentially noise-causing device out of the recording chain.
    I've done both over the years, I now use a dedicated recorder to record (Tascam DA-3000), not a computer.
    I use Izotope RX myself to manually de-click, many options exist, just depends on how serious you want to get about this, what results you hope to achieve.
    You can do very well with the freeware stuff, I started out using Audacity on a Mac, but as I got more serious about the hobby, I tried different apps for different reasons.

    There will always be golden-ear audiophile to criticize the sound no matter what, so use whatever suits you.

    On a separate note, I was in Lille in May, great area to visit! My company is based near there (Roubaix).
     
  8. Cyrille.A

    Cyrille.A New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    Thank you,
    You mean i should replace th joplin by the Roland unit? I already have the second one, so it would be really less expensive for a start .
    At first, it is fo my personal collection, but i know some other people who would be glad to have a good numeric copy of there vinyl and could pay for that! If so, i should be serious.
    I come from the DJ world and I use to record with my roland connected to a Ellen & Heath Xone dj mixer... I use audacity to correct the hiss automatically... i am not satisfy with that, and would like to do better, i am learning and try to read and learn a lot about audiophile's world. I already upgrade my hi-fi sytem but still in progress, especially in the vinyl part.
    I also whant to have the best sound directly from my vinyl, that's why i am really interested in ultrasonci vinyl cleaner, but it has a high cost.
    I think it would be ridiculous to buy this cleaner and do a bad recording after...

    Are you working for a major internet french company with only 3 letters ?
     
  9. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    ADC = Analog to Digital Converter
    DAC = Digital to Analog Converter
    Your speakers/headphones (whatever you will use to listen to the recordings) are analog. You have to convert the files from the digital format wave file (this is usually automated) which the DAC converts to an analog signal that your speaker can reproduce.
    The overall process is this:
    The Joplin converts (ADC) the analog signal from the turntable into a digital stream, the recording software captures the stream and creates the wave file. The wave file is edited. Editing usually includes declicking and splitting the tracks (you record each album side as a single continuous stream).While you are editing the file, you will need to listen to the wave file, the DAC will allow you to do this. The wave file is converted to whatever type of file (e.g. 24/96 FLAC) you want when you save it. Just a note, the on-chip sound card is usually both ADC and DAC. But you would use the Joplin because it is better than the on-chip one.

    ClickRepair is a very old program, so it has been used by a lot of people and thus, people are very familiar with it. The way I used it was initially I would just take a look at the file. Listen to it to spot clicks, if I remember correctly, you could mark where you thought clicks appeared to be. If there were a lot, I would end up using the automation. The automation would scan the wave file for clicks and mark them. You could approve each repair or do it manually. Part of the automation is setting up the parameters that determined how the click was recognized. The other part was of the automation was how it would repair the file. After you get familiar with this process, you begin to trust the software, then things go much faster. I would always save a backup copy of the unedited wave file until I was completely done with the entire process. I have no experience with the other programs. But I will say that the nice thing about ClickRepair is that it's sole purpose is to declick wave files. So, the user interface is very clean and straight forward. The other programs seem to be more of a "utility belt" with many tools. So using them may be harder to learn, this is just a guess. But I would at least look at the free ones, they might useful.
     
  10. Cyrille.A

    Cyrille.A New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    Thank you it is much clear for me now. i haven't understand the dac process in fact, so a vinyl or other analog source should not use the dac way but go straight to the amplifier, i didn't catch that before :)
     
  11. Cyrille.A

    Cyrille.A New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    2 other questions:
    - Is it better to use a good phono preamplifier before the Joplin, it seems that the joplin is or has an integrate phono preamplifier.
    - Regarding encoding data, 24bits / 96Khz seems to be the best choice, or should I encode in 24bits / 44khz?

    Thank you.
     
  12. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    I'm not familiar with that device only having read a review of the MKI version. I thought the point of that device was that you shouldn't use an upfront phono stage. The device has practically every equalization curve ever used, not just the standard RIAA. So I would say, you shouldn't, but personally, I would try it if you have one laying around.

    From what I've read, the device is native 32 bit, so I would use that for the recording, otherwise you are just throwing away sampling data. The sampling frequency is up to you. I would go 96 myself, it seems like a good compromise of sound fidelity and file size. But at the end of the day, I would have 2 files when I was done. I would save a high resolution version and a standard redbook (16/44.1) version for my phone. The high resolution version for me was normally 24/96, but, if you have a device that plays 32/96, that's what I would save that. You can always downsample if you need the 24/96, but you will lose those bits if you only save the 24/96 file.
     
  13. Cyrille.A

    Cyrille.A New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    That's what i was thinking about the Joplin, regarding recording, if i go directly to my computer it will be 32/96, but my external one is limited to 24/96, so i will try both i think.

    Thank you.
     
  14. Cyrille.A

    Cyrille.A New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    Hello everyone, I have anonther question regarding ripping vinyls.
    My cartridge is liited to 20khz, so what is the point to rip above 44.1khz?
    Moreover if i have a look to some speaker frequency responses they often are above 30khz (ATC scm11 for exemple is 56 Hz to 22 kHz), so once again why rip above 44khz in this exemple?

    When I rip it i have somthing in the 20 / 30 khz spectrum. how is it possible? is it noise captation?

    here is an exeple analyse with spek:
    07 - Why Keep Breakin My Heart.wav.png
     
  15. Cyrille.A

    Cyrille.A New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    Some speakers such as magnepan can reach 40khz, but why note encoding in 88khz instead of 96 or 192khz
     
  16. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    Absolutely no point, although you could go to 48kHz if you feel the need. The frequency response of cartridges becomes erratic above ~15kHz
    [​IMG]

    You likely can't even hear this:


    I find one use for high sample rate though - it allows one to locate clicks and pops by spectral view. Transients are "all" frequencies, which stand out against the lack of ultrasonic music information on LPs. Mistracking also gives useless ultrasonics.

    You can record and edit in 24 bit, and then after you've adjusted your levels, save your final version to 16 bit.
     
    Robert C and Linto like this.
  17. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans
    I don't see the point in not ripping at at least 88K It's a lot of effort, seems like it makes sense to get as much information as possible. Kind of like running a tape deck at a higher speed. You can convert it back down to whatever you want later, but get as much information as the process will deliver up front.

    I rip my lps to DSD 5.6 with my Korg. Then convert them to 96K for editing. Works great. I usually keep the raw rip for archiving, but the files I use are usually 96K ALAC. I don't always split up the tracks until later if I get around to it. Keeps me from the temptation to skip around. :)
     
    elvisizer and Cliff like this.
  18. Cyrille.A

    Cyrille.A New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Lille, France
    I agree, but the real question is, as my cartridge, and lots of high quality ones, have limited frequency response to 20khz, what is the point to record at 96khz. Regarding 24 bits sample rates, i understand well that it will be better as the sinusoid will be neraes than the original tapes.
     
  19. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    It will be better because it will have lower quantization noise, although any digital is already far beyond the noise floor of LPs.
     
  20. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    IMO both are pointless. There will be no audible difference IME.
     
    Higlander likes this.
  21. Higlander

    Higlander Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Florida, Central
    I do not think realistically that anything beyond 16/44.1 would be needed for vinyl to be captured fully.
     
    Robert C likes this.
  22. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans
    I agree, but I see no reason not to capture at the higher but rate and see for yourself since that is step one. Not going to hurt final output at all and costs nothing but storage at step one. You can down sample it at any point.

    The real question would be “is there a difference in SQ between something captured at 96 and down sampled to 44.1/48 or is it better captured at that to start”. I don’t know the definitive answer to that, but I’ve not heard any.

    I wonder how many have posted here that they did not hear a difference between 320k mp3 and cd so they ripped their library that way only to decide that lossless was better and had a doover
     
  23. c-eling

    c-eling Forum Resident

    Gaslight likes this.
  24. Gaslight

    Gaslight Drake Dweller

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    I usually archive at 24/96 because storage is cheap, and it's just going to keep getting cheaper.

    But my on-the-go flies I usually do 24/44 lossy.
     
    c-eling likes this.
  25. Plan9

    Plan9 Mastering Engineer

    Location:
    Toulouse, France
    It's a common misconception.
    It's not that the cartridges or speakers or whatever suddenly cut off at 20kHz or any other specified frequency like a brickwall filter, it's that they stop having a "flat" response beyond that point, typically -/+3dB.
    Or sometimes, but rarely, it's that the manufacturer doesn't see the point of indicating response beyond the audible range...

    --------------------------------------------

    As an aside, I have repeatedly captured a 38kHz synthesizer glitch in an album on vinyl that I could verify was on the album's master tapes through a Hi-Res capture. So the vinyl format and the cartridges are definitely capable of recording these sounds, usefully or not.
    Also there was one of the Quadraphonic formats in the 70s (4.0 surround) that used a 30~35kHz carrier on vinyl for the decoding of the rear channels. If you have any Quad vinyl LPs, you may be interested in recording in Hi-Res for later decoding. But you'll need the right cartridge.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
    Robert C likes this.

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