High output MC Cartridges vs Low output--any difference in sound?

I'm using and love my Audible Illusions preamp from the late 90s. However, I do not have the John Curl gain amp that was an option, so I really can't use low output MC carts. Currently, I'm using a MM cart. Now, there are High Output MC carts along with their low output brothers. I understand that there are more windings of the coils (or something like that) to increase the output. My question is this: Do the higher output MC carts sound as good as their low output brothers? If no, why not? Thanks

 

Generally, no they sound a little worse.

To get a higher output they need more powerful magnet or more coil turns, usually both... but mostly more coil turns. Heavier moving parts is one issue, and less linear generation is the other (MC carts need a linear field that ideally the coil should remain in. This is difficult as the cart must also be small and light).

 

So, therefore, what you are saying is that higher output MC cartridges really defeat the purposes of a MC to begin with. I guess with that logic I'm better off with a high quality MM.

 

You should buy for the sound you want.

Some companies have done a good job of high output.. the Dynavector 10x series being an example.

alternatively, the Clearaudio MM range are considered high end cartridges, and have prices to match.

Looking at your system, I see you have one. If you're spending money, I'd consider first the VPI Classic turntable and second a Lyra MC cartridge, with a suitable preamp upgrade. But I'm not sure you really need to.

 

Don't MCs (high or low output) usually have more extended bandwidth than MMs?

 

I like my Denon DL-110 high output MC cart. I had been using an AT440mla MM.

 

I just went back to using an AT440mla on my LP12, a really great MM cart.It's musical, tracks like a champ, and the resolution is amazing. I've never really liked any of the MCs I've had as much as this. I'm now playing record after record, that is the litmus test for me.

 

Higher output carts have a denser, less delicate signal than a low output one if my experience means anything. For some kinds of music a thicker sound would be desired.

 

No, that's what you are saying.

The higher output MC carts do not sound as good as their same makers low output versions. That's not to say that they don't sound better than MM carts nor that they can't vary from maker to maker with some HOMC sounding better than some LOMC. Any other conclusion would be illogical. Unless of course you are simply trying to justify buying a MM cart.

-Bill

 

I never found the AI Modulous preamp to have enough satisfying gain even with high output MCs. I found MMs to sound best and have more dynamic range with that phono stage.

 

True. It's not suited for MC carts. It's a sweet linestage and would be best served by a really great phono stage. That would solve the LOMC issue in one fell swoop.
-Bill

 

low output MCs may have the POTENTIAL to sound better, but you really need one helluva MC phonostage to reap the benefits.

i personally have an old Spectral MCR Signature MC. .2mv and 2 ohm impedance - real bitch to drive.

my current preamp, a B&K MC-101 has a JFET phono stage with MC. you can tell it's struggling. still sounds good, but a touch of thinness - which means i need more gain. and despite the decent design of the B&K"s phono stage, i still get a hum. i can't solve it either. i don't get it with my Yamaha C-70's MC phono stage - so the B&K is getting called out on some ground loop issue.

and this is the crap you'll discover with low output MC cartridges.

the only step-up transformer i've tried was an old denon AU-320 - really colored sounding.

Robby

 

The state of the art carts are always MC, not MM. I consider MM entry level carts. If you have a good phono pre with adequate gain, I would go for an MC cart.

 

Consider getting a good step-up transformer for your low output MC. I have a Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, which is also 0.2 mV output, and while I could get output from it with my EAR 834Ps built-in SUTs, their 10dB gain was insufficient to get the cart's output into the 2.5 mV-10 mV range that is best suited for proper RIAA equalization (which specifies a target voltage of 5 mV, BTW). I bought a Bob's Devices 1:30 SUT for $395 with Cinemag transformers, and it really allowed my Urushi Vermilion to bloom and now I have a 6mV output going into the preamp, which gets me right in the middle of the output voltage range that RIAA specifies.

My Koetsu is far and away the best cartridge I've ever owned, with sweet and beautiful mids and highs, holographic imaging and superb detail, yet has a liquidity to die for. The bass is notably better than my Shelter 501MkII. The only carts I've personally heard that are as good or better are the Koetsu Urushi Blue, Koestu Tigereye, Koetsu Coral, Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum, the Soundsmith "The Voice", and the superb Dynavector XV-1S.

 

You'd be partly wrong.

 

I generally prefer MC cartridges (I own a Lyra Titan and Transfiguration Orpheus L), but, I don't necessarily think there is anything that can be labelled state of the art--any kind of cartridge could be someones absolute favorite, based on personal preference and system matching.

The Decca London cartridges that don't have a regular cantilever are MM-type cartridges that are extremely dynamic and vibrant sounding (tracking and compatibility with most arms is a weakness).

Soundsmith makes a strain guage cartridge--the "generating element" is actually material whose conductivity changes depending on how much it is bent (an external source of electricity is sent through this element)--that has garnered a lot of favorable reviews (I have never heard this cartridge/preamp system). Soundsmith also has started making, under its own name and for other brands, some very high end conventional moving magnet cartridges. I haven't heard these either, but, I would bet there would be some listeners who would prefer these to top end moving coils.

There was once a field effect transistor cartridge, which, like the Soundsmith cartridge, had to have an external power supply. The generating element was the gate part of a transistor, which modulated the flow from source to drain. I heard the Sao Win version many years ago and it sounded pretty good to me.

 

I don't like the Soundsmith Strain Gauge cartridge, personally, and have heard it three times. Not a fan of the Sussuro, either, but I do like "The Voice" with the ebony body.

 

The AI Modulus 3 DOES have a fantastic (in my opinion) phono stage. It's one of the few preamps that has a built in phono stage like they used to be made; in my opinion, the way all preamps, especially today with the vinyl resurgence, should be made. Really, the only reason for outboard phono stages was due to the fact that CDs took over and no one thought that they needed an old, outdated phonostage in a preamp any longer. Now, manufacturers can charge a hefty price to "add" what should already be there, and on top of that, one has to add more cables.

 

Sam,

If your prospective alternative cartridges must be high output, then you are somewhat limited in choices because most of the better cartridges are medium or low in output. If your built-in phonostage does not have enough gain, there is no alternative but to stick with high output cartridges or go with some kind of separate phonostage--either active amplification or passive step up transformers. Since you like the built-in stage, if I were you, I would be looking at a step up transformer. Yes, this would involve additional cables and another box, unless you are really handy and the AI has enough room inside to build in the step up transformer (some microphone transformers are quite small).

As to whether manufacturers should always have included a phonostage, I don't think that is practical. First, a really good stage, even with the inherent savings of integration with the preamp in the first place, would not be cheap. Second, as you are finding out, even a built-in stage would most likely NOT be universal in its ability to work well with all cartridges (even separate phonostages are far from being universal).

It's up to you. If you decide to experiment with low output cartridges, I would do what Puma recommends and buy an external step up transformer. That would mean a significant expense in terms of the device itself and an extra set of interconnects, but it would be cheaper than trying to completely replace the built-in stage of the AI which you like.

 

It's a horses-for-courses situation. The best sounding turntable rig I've heard uses a LOMC. I don't want that rig, I'd be afraid to play my records on it. If one is fond of fifties LPs and has access to less than ideal copies a SOTA cartridge would be a different beastie than the phono cartridge for a fan of modern high-end vinyl pressings.

 

I have a high output Benz MC. I had the opportunity to try a friends low output Benz MC with a step up in my system. The low output was a bit more detailed but for me it wasn't worth the headache of having to deal with step ups and more surface noise that I heard with the low output. It really boils down to what you like for one and matching the low output cartridge with either the correct phono stage or correct step up transformer.

 

So, based on the responses, if I wanted to go to a moving coil, I would best be served by going with a LOW OUTPUT design and adding an outboard phono stage. Therefore, what all of you are basically saying, is that HIGH OUTPUT moving coils are really not going to give me the MC sound that would be an overall improvement over most MM designs.

 

One of the biggest improvements I experienced in my TT rig was using the 50 year old Scott 299b as the phono pre, this with the lowly Shure 97. I suppose if one is going by theory, one would expect the best results with a LOMC in the best circumstances. The synergy of phono pre and cartridge is critical. But conditions are never ideal and sometimes a moving iron or moving magnet or a high output MC works out best in a given system. My advice is to use your ears.

 

thanks for the insight.

i can't build anything, but my friend can - and he's a big DIYaudio addict. he could build a cinemang SU - like the bob's devices thing - but he already tried that with his benz glider - sounded pretty good - but now he's using a DIY JFET phonostage (based on the latest Salas collaborative circuit on DIY audio) - sound much more dynamic to me.

we are doing some horse trading - so he can build a JFET, custom tailored to the spectral.

Robby

 

No. That's what may happen given your current phono stage though. Yes, the LOMC is the tops but you could still get better sound with a HOMC. many people find that HOMC provides them with better sound than typical MM cartridges. In your case, you'll get some noise with the internal phono preamp as it is pretty low gain and you'll be cranking up linestage gain to compensate. So you'd still be better off with an external phono stage which has more gain and is fully adjustable. That way, you can use whatever cartridge type that you like.
-Bill