History of Liederkranz Hall (RCA, CBS)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by DMortensen, Feb 6, 2016.

  1. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Dan, Are you sure this is a New York (not Hollywood) studio photo?
     
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  2. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The left side isn't completely dark, it's just somewhat lighter on the right. It just looks like a quirk with the angle and lighting of this particular photo to me.

    That's actually a good question.

    While searching, I stumbled on this:

    [​IMG]
    Liederkranz Hall, at 111 East 58th Street, New York, NY. Various photos taken of the building, stairway, recording studio, dining room, artwork. January 19, 1947.
    January 19, 1947
     
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  3. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    I'm just trying to narrow down the possibilities. That's a very youthful looking Frank (based on the hairline and bow tie), say pre-1947, and most (not all) of his recordings with Stordahl and ork in that timeframe were on the west coast.
     
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  4. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I don't have time now, but I need to go back and look at all those early photos again. I think we assumed some were Liederkranz when it's possible they weren't.

    That said, where would it be on the west coast?
     
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  5. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    CBS Playhouse is mentioned in some session and union reports, but most just give the location as Hollywood. Beyond that, I'd have to do more research.
     
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  6. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    I could swear a bunch of CBS Playhouse discussion took place somewhere around here recently, but I can't put my finger on it. :oops:
     
  7. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    We were discussing the 1946 Metronome All-Stars session in NYC (which was preceded and followed by sessions at CBS Playhouse in Hollywood), here:

    Sinatra on Columbia (Official/Authorized Releases)*
     
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  8. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Not at all sure. I do know they are Fred Plaut pictures (there are more from this session) so he would have had to be there.
     
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  9. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    That is a spectacular picture!! It really shows a lot of things, and is the best view of that expanse of wall and the only view I've seen of the ceiling.

    Are they in progress of covering that tall wall with diffusion?
     
  10. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Not certain, but it doesn't look like it's under construction to me.

    More digging later. It looks like Getty has a bunch of CBS radio photos which may not necessarily be helpful, but are interesting.
     
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  11. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    If we assume the Sinatra-Stordahl photo is from a New York City Columbia recording session prior to 1950, these are the possible dates:

    1944: Nov 14, Dec 1, Dec 3
    1945: Nov 19, Nov 30, Dec 7
    1946: Apr 7, Dec 15
    1947: Oct 19, Oct 22 (Liederkrantz Hall), Oct 26, Oct 29, Oct 31, Nov 5, Nov 9, Nov 25, Dec 4, Dec 8

    Based on Sinatra's appearance, I might tend to doubt a 1947 date, which narrows it to just eight sessions in 1944–46. If any of the musicians can be identified, we might be able to pin it down further. Ideally, if any of the other pictures from that session include closeups of sheet music, Mssr. Lutthans may be able to show off his estimable note-reading skills. ♬
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
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  12. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    So, going back through the archives, I'm less sure of things than ever. Regarding Matt's corrected photo:

    I thought that was Liederkranz, and swore I had seem similar photos before. Here we go:

    Not exactly the same view of the control room, but it definitely looks like a match to me. Various ornate details on the walls...I had assumed that was Liederkranz before renovation. But now I'm less certain. The tell-tale mirrors, if present, can't been seen behind those curtains. And if you look at later photos of Liederkranz, there actually are still some ornate details on that wall, and at the moment from what I can see they don't appear to match what's in those photos.

    Then I came to this:

    Oh, wait, no biggie. I was about to say this is yet another control room (that looks amazing similar to the last one at Liederkranz), because there's a door on the left not seen elsewhere, but I just realized that the CBS/Getty photo I posted was taken at such an angle where the door/wall isn't visible, and since it's such a short wall, the photo makes it look like it isn't there.

    That still leaves the question of that other location though.
     
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  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    This photo from Dan:
    [​IMG]
    ...appears to be taken in the same studio as this photo (below) that appears in the book accompanying The Columbia Years:
    SinatraMystery.jpg
    EDIT:
    I see that the photo is captioned: "Recording 'It You Are But a Dream' at the premiere Sinatra-Stordahl Columbia session, Liederkrantz Hall, November 14, 1944."
     
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  14. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Those Hermann photos were taken just a few weeks before he was involved in the famous War of the Worlds broadcast with Orson Welles.
     
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  15. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I missed Matt's edit. But I just found this:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    "Frank Sinatra shown making his first Columbia record sing the Petrillo ban was lifted. This action photo was taken at Liederkranz Hall during the actual recording on Tuesday, November 14th. Two the songs recorded were "White Christmas" and "If You Are But A Dream." This record will be released immediately."
    Sinatra photo: Frank Sinatra in recording session at Liederkranz Hall, New York, Nov. 14, 1944. - Print, Photographic

    Seems to be good confirmation it's Liederkranz to me. Presumably it was received slightly after the stamped date.
     
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  16. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    On the higher-rez version that @lukpac posted, I can zoom in and make out the opening notes of the (2nd?) violin part to "If You Are but a Dream," FWIW, with all those downward-descending, tremolo whole notes.
     
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  17. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Here's a challenge: Can you find pictures of Liederkranz during its time as a TV studio?

    I ask because it occurs to me that we see it without acoustical diffusion, we see it with acoustical diffusion, then it turns into a TV studio within a year or at most two after the diffusion is installed. Right? Or do we know when those sessions were when it was installed? I think I don't know dates at this time.

    It occurred to me that since the diffusion looks like it can be installed as individual pieces that maybe it could be removed that way and transported over and installed at 30th St, since 30th St opened with no diffusion and then got it fairly quickly. If it was left at Liederkranz there were two sets, if it was removed there might only be one used in both places.

    I don't recall if I mentioned it here but it is clear that 30th St was purchased to be used as multiple TV studios and was in part outfitted as such during the first phase of construction that allowed it to open as a recording studio. But, the plans were scrapped just after that initial opening and Liederkranz, which had recently had the polycylindrical diffusors installed on walls and nice woodwork installed on the control room, was turned into TV studios instead. Did that acoustical treatment stay for the TV studio days?

    Now I have a nagging memory that one of the books excerpts that was posted in the early days of this thread had something similar in it but we didn't dwell on that.
     
  18. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    There are tons of details about Liederkranz as a TV studio here:

    CBS studios – New York – Eyes Of A Generation…Television's Living History

    There were actually 4 studios, 53, 54, 55, and 56. 53 and 54 were on the second floor, while 55 and 56 were on the first floor. So it wasn't as if there was a single room for TV (or even a single space in the building that was subdivided for TV). I think we've assumed the Sinatra photos are from the same room, before and after renovation, but there's a possibility that they were actually in different areas of the building. I'm not sure.

    Also, it isn't entirely clear when the renovation/subdivision/move/whatever happened at Liederkranz. The accounts we're familiar with suggest it was done shortly before the move to 30th Street, but we already know at least some of that story isn't quite so straightforward. It's possible changes were made earlier than we might assume.
     
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  19. tommy-thewho

    tommy-thewho Senior Member

    Location:
    detroit, mi
    Love all these pictures.

    Great job your doing...
     
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  20. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    WOW, that is a terrific article, and inspiring, too. In fact, that whole website looks like it will be very instructive.

    At first glance it appears that the one that seems like what I've been thinking of as "Liederkranz" in the thread context (the one with the diffusion on the walls) is Studio 56, while the one that had the Sinatra session I posted that Matt reversed was Studio 53 (looking like it's at an angle to the right wall). Since the clock and the plate below it look the same in that shot and the one in the background of the article Matt posted, those places are the same. And since the one from the Hoboken Historical Museum is a different crop of the magazine one, those are the same room, too?

    Man, this keeps getting curiouser and curiouser.

    Which one had all the arches and mirrors on the walls? Maybe this is why it's been so hard to get a room layout of Liederkranz.....
     
  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Yes.
     
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  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Perhaps (staged?) photos from rehearsal for Orson Welles Mercury Theatre on the Air broadcast of "Oliver Twist" that aired live on October 2? Sadly, that appears to be a "lost episode" from the series. Any chance there was a smaller rehearsal/radio space within the building at that time? (Just thinking out loud. Probably wrong.)
     
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  23. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    (Pardon any re-posts.) Liederkranz, with photos from this site:
    Photo_Benny_1941Jan.jpg
    Above: 1941
    Studio_Columbia_Liederkranz_1944Nov14_Sinatra.jpg
    Above: November 14, 1944, same session as below (two different crops of the same photo).
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (In the above photo, Frank is seen rehearsing and/or addressing the ensemble, but his actual singing position/booth for recording purposes was way off to our right, out of view.)
    Studio_Columbia_Liederkranz_1944Dec22or23_Pinza_2.jpg Studio_Columbia_Liederkranz_1944Dec22or23_Pinza_1.jpg
    Above two photos are from an Ezio Pinza session, December 22 or 23, 1944.
    Studio_Columbia_Liederkranz_Robeson_unknown.jpg
    Above, from undated Paul Robeson session.
     
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  24. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    More Liederkranz photos, from the same site:
    Studio_Columbia_Liederkranz_Robeson_LawrenceBrown.jpg
    Above: (Same?) undated Robeson session.
    Studio_Columbia_Liederkranz_DavidsonRael_BartlettEthel.jpg
    Above: Rael Davidson and Ethel Bartlett
    Studio_Columbia_Liederkranz_1947_Sinatra.jpg
    Above: Sinatra, 1947.
     
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  25. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    A few of those are from Dan.

    Are you sure the Pinza session is from 1944? I'm definitely struggling to make sense of the layout(s).
     

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