How do I know that it's playing the SACD layer?

I agree with this, I feel that more care was given to a quality product I worked in a Classical record shop and could compere a standard red book the SACD sounded better, on a basic red book CD player.

 

So, it shouldn't need SACD to sound better.

 

Play a SACD layer only disc ie not a hybird.
If there is music coming from your speakers, then you will know it is playing the SACD layer

 

What you say is true, however, as I previously mentioned, if the disc plays, that is still no indication you are hearing SACD. Manufacturers do make equipment that will play an SACD disc, however you are not hearing what you are wanting to hear, but instead hearing DSD (Direct Stream Digital) turned into PCM which completely defeats the reason to have SACD to begin with. The product mentioned here converts DSD to PCM as the manufacturer says, on the fly! By doing this, you can make an inexpensive product that will play an SACD disc. The question is, what have I gained by purchasing an expensive SACD disc and then turn around and play it on a machine that will completely downgrade the desired native DSD product to PCM like a standard red book CD, answer, waste of money. The only thing you will get is the ability to play a single layer SACD with none of the sonic advantages because of the player downgrading to PCM before outputted to your Pre-amp or receiver. The goal is to find that player that keeps you in the DSD domain, all the way to those analog outputs, with no PCM conversion. Yes, I fully realize there have been many SACD discs made from PCM beginnings, but for the sake of getting the most for your money I am referencing the discs with DSD beginnings, such as Telarc SACD's.

 

I have an inexpensive Sony blu-ray player, model BDP-s5100, and it appears to play SACD in DSD form. The manual does not say anything about it converting DSD to PCM, and when I play SACD's on it, my receiver shows "DSD" as the format. By comparison, my old Oppo DVD player (DV-970HD) does convert SACD to PCM (and the manuals state this explicitly), and when I play SACD's from it to the same receiver, it says "Stereo" or "Multichannel" depending on what layer I'm playing, and "DSD" is not an option. So although I could be mistaken, I'm reasonably sure that it is not converting DSD to PCM.

 

I believe that product was made in 2013, and rule of thumb, if the product was made post 2005, you can be pretty confident you are not getting DSD to the end, but rather PCM conversion, however if you want to be sure, you can contact Sony several different ways. After 2005 the inclusion of SACD by Sony is just to keep people happy, and the ability to play an SACD disc, it's not about maintaining the sonic advantages of DSD, which has been a huge disappointment to all of us.

 

So why would my Onkyo receiver report that it is receiving DSD from my Sony blu-ray player but not from the Oppo? Logically it should not show DSD for either if both players convert to PCM.

 

You make a good point and I know if I owned the Sony piece, I absolutely would contact them to verify, and be warned, some of the people you could reach will have very little knowledge of the product and you will have to spell it out and HOPE they get the answer right. You will have to get to their engineering people, and really spell it out as it's very easy for someone to say, oh yes, sure, it's DSD, absolutely. I would think whatever circuit from the Sony could be easily structured to show DSD while really providing PCM, which is why you really need to find out for sure, it's the not knowing for sure that would bug me and you too.

 

Only first two iterations of the original Sony VC chip set sounded extraordinary. Even lower cost Sony SACD players of that era sounded great, playing well mastered SackDee's. After 2006 I'm not sure. Perhaps great sounding players continued to exist, but at much higher price points.

 

Do you know of any actual players that are deliberately engineered to display DSD to a receiver when it is actually PCM? Is that really a thing?

 

I do not know if they are or not, but my reasoning is that Sony's explanation of something showing up DSD could means the piece is reading the SACD layer (DSD), not that it is being converted to PCM downstream before the analog outputs. My best instincts tell me bottom line, he is getting a DSD to PCM conversion, and I could be totally wrong, but from what I have read on newer players, the emphasis is not on a native DSD final product, it's just much easier and cost effective to convert to PCM. Sony is not forthcoming with this at all. You would think on the specs of any of their players, anything that handles SACD's, if they did indeed provide full native DSD to the analog outputs, they would have that written all over the box, however, even on the specification there is nothing there on ANY of the inexpensive products, so all I am saying is he should check and know what he has. This is somewhat like all the new Aerial speakers being made in China, you don't see anyone bragging about that. So, he will be well served checking with engineering at Sony to see if it's DSD or PCM.

 

The manual for my player says that it outputs DSD via HDMI. I understand the idea that converting DSD to PCM would be more cost-effective but I don't understand why they would go to the trouble to engineer a player to appear to output DSD, even though it is actually being converted to PCM, unless they're just an altogether corrupt, deceitful company. I thought that SACD was Sony's baby, but they have dropped SACD from their cheaper players altogether in the last few years. I rather think that is how they are cutting costs on SACD rather than going to the trouble to actually deceive people.

 

Well, that is the answer, it's DSD through HDMI. On my older players it remained DSD until the final analog outputs, as my equipment does not have HDMI inputs only Balanced and RCA single ended, so mine has to stay in the DSD domain all the way to the analog balanced or single ended outputs, never converted to PCM. I gather from your response that player does not remain DSD to the analog outputs, but it does through the HDMI, so with that said they can certainly claim DSD. You had not mentioned the DSD through the HDMI outputs. That wold not help me personally, as I would need the player to stay DSD until the final stage where it's outputted through single ended or balanced connectors, as my old Sony equipment offered.

 

So are you saying that there is no such thing as true DSD through HDMI?

 

I have never heard of such a thing. It is highly improbable.

 

I wonder if the Marantz SA-8005 is putting true DSD trough the analog outputs. I would assume 'yes'.

 

I was "tricked" by this assumption before. No player outputs DSD from the analog outputs of a player. The DSD data is converted to an analog signal through the players DAC.

From the Oppo 105D's manual (page 64).

For the analog audio outputs, DSD data is converted into an analog signal directly by the internal DAC.

 

How could you even get the impression I thought there was no such thing as DSD through HDMI, sure it can go through HDMI, you just had not mentioned that in previous posts.

Bill, many people do not realize the DSD stops at the analog outs, but the trick is to get it "to" that point, where so many now convert to PCM internally, before making it to the outputs.

 

Maybe I should have worded differently. I know the outputs are putting out an analog signal, but I wonder if the Marantz is converting the SACD signal to PCM before the final conversion to the analog output signal.

 

Understood. I guess one has to check the players manual or call the manufacturer.

OK. That's a good question and I'd hope DSD is not converted to PCM. Looking at the SA8005 manual the only mention of DSD related to SACDs is in page 75 where it says "Signal type: 1-bit DSD". Not sure if that means DSD is not converted to PCM before being output of the analog outputs.

http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/SA8005 Owners Manual in English.pdf

 

If a player is licensed for SACD, don't they all have the display 'light' for SACD?

Mine does.

 

Exactly. Cambridge, for example, is very clear that their CXU converts the DSD signal to PCM. Ayre, OTOH, states very clearly that their C-5xeMP goes from the DSD chip to the analog stage. Not sure about the Marantz 8005.

John K.

 

I'm terribly sorry, I misunderstood your whole point about HDMI.

 

I really wonder about the Marantz as I have one and do not find the SACD playback to sound much different from Redbook. However my equipment and ears aren't the best so who knows. I still like the player.

 

You can't really be sure. Only Ken Ishiwata would know.

Regards