How do you audition a turntable?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Brian Gupton, Jul 27, 2015.

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  1. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    They're up to 60 now. Pretty incredible!
     
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  2. Coricama

    Coricama Classic Rocker

    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Ever tried it?
     
  3. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I always mean to, but I end up enjoying the gear I buy from them too much!
     
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  4. Coricama

    Coricama Classic Rocker

    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Ditto!
     
  5. Jack Flannery

    Jack Flannery Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    There are few, barely any, places in Houston where you can even buy a turntable.
     
  6. quicksilverbudie

    quicksilverbudie quicksilverbudie

    Location:
    Ontario
    Bring or use your own records that you know very very well and go from there!

    sean
     
  7. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    There really is no way to practical ways to audition tables. I do know a dealer who would allow me to take home tables, but, that is something extraordinarily rare. It is FAR to easy to damage tables in transit for most dealers to allow in-home demonstrations. Even if I did take home the table, it would still not be that easy to make any kind of meaningful comparison. About the best one can do is hear the various candidate tables in a variety of setups to get some rough picture of how that table sounds. Over the years, I have developed some rough generalizations of the type of sound that certain types of tables deliver--lightly sprung tables vs. no-suspension, belt driven vs. idler wheel, clamped vs. unclamped--but, these are really rough generalizations and not something to go by in making a specific purchase.

    There is one aspect of the design of the overall package (table and tonearm) that is easier to hear than most other aspects of performance, and that is how well the combination damps vibrations imparted in the arm by the cartridge tracking a record. The sharp im9

    I did manage to hear a shootout between two tonearms (both mounted on the same table) that had the same model cartridge mounted on both, and the differences were pretty subtle. I would expect differences between two good tables to be at least as subtle.

    My own purchasing decision was based on the recommendation of an industry insider who has heard thousands of different systems in homes and at dealerships. This person worked for a company that did not sell table, although they did sell a tonearm. He recommended a brand of table and arm that he had no vested interest in, and so I went in that direction. He also had some decent insight into the other brands I happened to be interested in and pointed out things to look at about these brands that turned out to be helpful (e.g., he pointed out poor machining that I could actually see in the subtle wobble in the platter of a really expensive table).
     
  8. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer

    I got lucky When I was purchasing a fairly expensive VPI Aries 3 it was used and I had no opportunity to audition one. I made a decision based on a friend who had a lower end VPI and reading a lot of reviews both professional and user based. I figured buying it used I could sell it for about the same as I paid for it (it seemed like a good deal), and took the chance. It worked out very well and only got better as I upgraded carts. Sometimes you need to take an informed chance.
     
  9. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    I'm dying to know what table Brian is thinking about getting. I vote for the VPI direct drive. I like to live vicariously though his purchases.
     
  10. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    Personally, I feel this should be a poll where we pick Brian's next table.
     
  11. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    Brian: you should reach out to DDK over on the What's Best Forum and invite yourself to his place. Not to buy, but to get a sense of what some of the uber tables bring to the table. He has the big TechDas which, from what I gather, is not in top rung of his range of pretty crazy stuff: an old Thorens Reference, a couple of vintage Micro-Seikis, a vintage EMT, another table that is pretty much a 'one-off', etc. He could demo these tables over the same system and you'll get a sense of what the differences are; he also has a huge collection of cartridges, old and new and is a good guy. You'll probably find it an informative trip- I've been meaning to visit him for a while. What that tells you about new tables that are available? Dunno, but you'll probably have some fun. I know my buddy Syntax, on Audiogon, thinks highly of vintage Micro-Seiki, but I would be hesitant to deal w/ the quirks of a vintage table of that calibre.
     
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  12. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Being that the rest of his system is Shindo, I would think the Shindo Garrard 301 system is the way to go. It's a perfect match.
     
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  13. Jtycho

    Jtycho Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    YES! DDK's systems are absolutely amazing! His love for the SME 3012R is interesting and I plan on picking one up eventually to find out for myself. So much can be learned from a guy like him, particularly because of his perceived indifference towards the latest and greatest gear.
     
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  14. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Ha! Maybe a poll is the way to go. ;)

    I'm definitely leaning toward a Garrard 301 system since that is a "match" for the rest of my system. I'm torn between the Shindo build and the Artisan Fidelity custom build.

    The Shindo table has a few smallish things I'm not too keen on:
    1. No tone arm lift. I lived without this working on my current table for about a month. I got used to it, but had 3-4 close calls. Not sure I want to deal with that again or deal with adding something after market.
    2. Price:Aesthetics ratio. The Shindo table is $29K. To my eyes, it looks a bit pedestrian at that dollar amount and my table is the center piece of my room, so aesthetics are somewhat important.
    3. No delivery timetable. I've been waiting to hear when Shindo is going to do another production run of their Lafon gm70 monoblocks since December. Still no word. Not sure I want to deal with that uncertainty.
    4. No customization. I'm not a fan of the white Garrard. I'd prefer black, but my understanding is that you can only get white.
    These are all kinda minor points and I may end up with the Shindo, but I kinda feel that at that price point I should be able to get everything I want. The Artisan Fidelity tables are drop dead gorgeous and totally customizable, so that might be the way to go to get somewhat similar sonics but without the minor drawbacks. And it's cheaper to boot. The biggest drawback is that I can't hear this table before purchase since they are all custom built and AF doesn't really have a showroom. Anyone know someone with this table in the Bay Area?


    While these two tables are at the top of my list, I do kinda feel like I ought to investigate and consider some of the other uber tables out there. Bill's suggestion of visiting DDK is probably a good one. I did find the thread where he breaks down his 5 favorite Uber tables. Going just off aesthetics I'd maybe consider the Goldmund or Thorens reference tables, but I do think the Artisan Fidelity table is more beautiful. So I'd have to be swayed by the sonics of another uber table which is kinda the challenge in this post. :)
     
  15. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    I can't answer all of your questions but I'm pretty sure I've seen that the Shindo Garrard was available in the hammertone finish as well as the cream. I do think it's important to keep the 301 in one of it's stock colors. As for it not being a looker, having seen one in the flesh a number of times, I can tell you that is an incredible looking piece. Does it look like $29k? Well, that's up to you. Also, having no tonearm lift is not that much of a problem when dealing with 12" tonearms. They are a bit easier to wield than shorter arms.

    As for the Artisan Fidelity, I do have a buddy that had some problems with the plinth he ordered from them for his 301, so I'd be cautious.
     
  16. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I've seen the Shindo table in person. It looks really nice, but I'd say not drool-inducing the way the Artisan Fidelity build is.

    The Shindo table/arm is also $5K+ more expensive than the Artisan Fidelity Statement with 12" Ikeda IT-407 arm. That's not insignificant since I can actually get the AF built in a dual arm configuration and use the savings to buy a second uber arm. Plus, I know that when I pay the deposit on the AF table, I'll have the finished product in my system in 8-12 weeks.

    That said, having an all Shindo system has its own appeal. Probably can't go wrong on any of these.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I haven't studied the Shindo Player System in detail, but I do sort of wonder what makes it what it is vs. say, what www.woodsongaudio.com does. Or a professionally refurbished deck put in the A23 Garrard 301 plinth that's a "steal" at $4K.

    I believe there is a replacement Shindo bearing, and perhaps the key idler wheel, but I also know you can purchase these parts on their own. Obviously tonearms are important, but there are plenty of great 12" tonearms to be had, which seem more similar then different.

    So I guess it comes down to how $5-$7 invested in a Garrard system differs from the $20K-$30K range of the Shindo?
     
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  18. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I won't be using a tonearm without a cueing mechanism - you have my permission to cross the Shindo off the list now ;).
     
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  19. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    I can only dream of a table over $10K, but if I did it would be an SME without a doubt. Great, great engineering.
     
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  20. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    If you're asking the difference between spending $5-7K customizing a Garrard 301 versus the $30K Shindo version, what you're gonna hear is that Shindo has perfected his design over 40+ years. There's definitely some value in that, whether it's worth $20K+ is difficult to say. I guess it depends on how crappy your customization job ends up. :)

    I don't mind spending more for the peace of mind (within reason). The resell value alone might make it worth it to have a name brand.

    I'd love to hear the Shindo side-by-side with the Artisan Fidelity though to make to-apples decision with my money. But this is like comparing a Ferrari to a Lamborghini. :)
     
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  21. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    There are quite a few tables I've crossed off the list purely due to aesthetics. My room has a decidedly traditional old world look to it, so the more industrial tables like the SME, MicroSeki, etc are a bit of a non-starter even though they look cool and are probably fantastic tables.

    My current table has a Graham Phantom Supreme arm and it kinda sticks out like a sore thumb aesthetically in the room. Truth be told, I doubt anyone else on earth would even notice, but I kinda have a vision in my head for what I want to look at and it's not industrial. Would've worked great in the lofts I lived in before though. :)
     
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  22. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    I with you Jim, the top of the line SME machining is amazing to say the least.
     
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  23. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    ------------------------------
    Knowing your taste, I get that, but a Graham is surely a very nice arm. How about a nice, vintage roll-top desk to "hide" the table in? If I could spend that kind of money I couldn't hide it.
     
  24. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
  25. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I just can't tell how much of the equation is the artistry/craftsmanship of these beautiful plinths and how much is for sonic benefit. All things being equal, how does the plinth Art Dudley built in his garage out of layers of plywood compare sound wise? The decks themselves are generally in the same price range, as are most 12" arms, so it seems the plinths are where the money is going.

    Another question I have about this sort of thing is what cartridges do folks run on these? I'm not sure I've ever heard of anybody using anything but a 103 or SPU, two cartridges with roughly $4500 separation in price!
     
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