How important is a phono stage for sound quality?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Fishoutofwater, Feb 28, 2017.

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  1. harmonica98

    harmonica98 Senior Member

    Location:
    London, UK
    Try a Trichord Dino which is readily available on the used market for under £200. There will be a signficant difference. I went from a Cambridge Audio 640P to the Dino and it was one of the biggest upgrades I've ever had.
     
    royzak2000 and alanb like this.
  2. dougotte

    dougotte Petty, Annoying Dilettante

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    This is my first tube component, and I haven't replaced the tubes. But, it's worth a try. Thanks for the suggestion.
     
    DrZhivago likes this.
  3. Fishoutofwater

    Fishoutofwater Forum Resident Thread Starter

    ok. i have ordered a Monacor and i cant believe it will out perform my MF gear but i trust your opinions and regularly like your posts, so lets see. I will give an update when it arrives and i can do an A vs B comparison. I hope you are right as i will be able to sell my MF gear and buy loads of new albums!!
    PS check out Kaleo. A band my kids like. bought the album today. Impressed!!
     
  4. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    I,m sure you will be pleased. And possibly stunned how something this simple , can be so good
    There's another variant out there
    That uses a PP3 battery!
    If you think about it , phono stages
    Are a Liscence to print money.
    Its job is to correct frequency by RIAA
    Equalisation and amplify from 3mv
    To 1.2 volts approx.
    Its 2 transistors per channel with a feedback loop for RIAA .
    Current drain is very low ,
    £330-£1500? How?
     
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  5. Fishoutofwater

    Fishoutofwater Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Well i hope you are right but if not it will still be a good experiment. If you are right you had better be careful or the hi fi industry might take out a contract on you!! Plenty of posts on this forum about "upgrading" phono stages and maybe in the long run you may well be saving a lot of people plenty of money! Bye the way i use the same passive pre amp that you use. Works well
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  6. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    Thorensman,

    Signal to noise I believe is listed at 50 dB for this unit. Much noisier than anything I've had before. What are your observations on the noise level when compared to say the ifi phono that you commented on in another thread? Do you prefer the Monacor over the iphono 1?

    Thanks
     
  7. dividebytube

    dividebytube Forum Resident

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    If the rest of your system is up to snuff - then the phono stage is very important.

    There was a time when I was rolling a lot of gear, including phono stages. With my now departed VPI HW19 and Aries 1 turntable, I tried several phono preamps: Bottlehead Seduction, Graham Slee V, Threshold FET-10/PC, Quicksilver full-function, an Audiosector Phono Stage (PhonoCube clone), and even rebuilt Dynaco PAS and PAT preamps - they all sounded different and had different pluses and minuses.

    The Threshold was the most balanced and flexible of them all, but didn't have the same excitement as the Audiosector, which excelled at detail. The Graham Slee was also very good - with amazing bass - but it had a top end that (at least in my system) I found colored. The Dynaco gear was vintagey - with their respective sins. And the Bottlehead was the best bang for the buck and one that I should have kept around but it's DIY build quality made it decidedly non-wife friendly.

    The long run winner was the Quicksilver which stayed in my "big rig" system the longest.
     
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  8. ChuckyBuck

    ChuckyBuck Forum Resident

    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    Are the differences in phono preamps due mostly to differences in the output stage or can there be differences in the RIAA equalization? Seems like accurate equalization should be pretty straight forward but I don't really know.
     
  9. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    It
    its quiet. At full volumes hardly anything.and that is with arm st rest . In
    Practice
    I rarely go over half full volume.
    As I recall its as quiet as the IFI.
    Its sweeter than IFI
    Very smooth, deep bass.
    Simplicity is the key here i believe.
    I prefer it.
    I listen to Opera, Jazz, 50,s to 80,s
    Pop, and cannot fault it.
    If and i,m sure that you will like it, you will quickly recognise TID ( transient
    Inter modulation distortion.
    Its inherent in all class B
    Designs which OP amps are biased in.
    The Monacor is ClassA and sounds
    Natural, like in a live concert,
    OP amp based CAN sound brighten
    Over the top in the bass dept.
    Its my personal opinion,
    Some will not agree!
    I respect their viewpoint.
    I will be very interested in what you think.
    I make passives, and interconnects,
    Parts are cheap .amp( phono ) case £14 on Ebay( China )
    I make a simple switching box
    Which I can add up to 1020pf of capitance.
    And load to 30 k to this i add a Mono switch,
    Parts are cheap. Why phono stages require massive power supplies when a PP3 battery will last 6 months i don,t know .
    Or why they cost so much ?
    Keep me posted!
    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
    doctor fuse likes this.
  10. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    RIAA is straight forward as you say .
    Cannot see why some sound better than others . They do of course!
    RIAA as you know , adds the required amount of bass, and cuts the treble.
    It's an exact science . 2 transistors and RIAA feedback loop.
    It would be easy to draw out circuit
    And copy. More caps can added to
    Make even quieter .
     
    doctor fuse and ChuckyBuck like this.
  11. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    It
    its quiet. At full volumes hardly anything.and that is with arm st rest . In
    Practice
    I rarely go over half full volume.
    As I recall its as quiet as the IFI.
    Its sweeter than IFI
    Very smooth, deep bass.
    Simplicity is the key here i believe.
    I prefer it.
    I listen to Opera, Jazz, 50,s to 80,s
    Pop, and cannot fault it.
    If and i,m you will like it, you will quickly recognise TID ( transient
    Inter modulation distortion.
    Its inherent in all class B
    Designs which OP amps are biased in.
    The Monacor is Class A.
     
    doctor fuse likes this.
  12. Fishoutofwater

    Fishoutofwater Forum Resident Thread Starter

    ok. an update as i received the little phono stage today. On the upside there is little to complain about. Smooth, neutral, clear and overall a bloody bargain. However a get a loud pop when switching on the TT and my ears prefer my MF phono stage. Its more "dynamic" or perhaps more coloured? If it wasnt for the loud pops i would have kept it as i enjoyed the different "sound" and it would be fun having two phono stages. If i had nothing to compare it to i might have been VERT happy. I would still say " give it a try, you have nothing bar postage costs to loose "
     
  13. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    'Vert happy' - is that a French expression? :)

    Interesting report, thanks.
     
  14. Mrtn77

    Mrtn77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Paris
    Have you considered giving the Atoll P200se phono stage a try ? "Symmetrical scheme with discrete components equipped with high-class MKP capacitor technology" (whatever that is)...
     
  15. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    PARAMOUNT.
     
  16. dougotte

    dougotte Petty, Annoying Dilettante

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I received my Gold Lions earlier this week. Although I didn't do a direct comparison (too lazy to climb behind the rack and do all the replacing multiple times, plus I figured it would take time for the Gold Lions to have as many hours as the ones they replaced), and I've only used the Gold Lions for about 6 hours so far, I do have the sense that they're an improvement.

    Thanks again for the suggestion.
     
    DrZhivago likes this.
  17. Doc Diego

    Doc Diego Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nevada
    Over the last decade I've gone through half a dozen phono stages, all of a budget variety. My MF XLPS ran on a 12 volt battery and sounded pretty nice. Had the original Lounge and thought the MF soundstage was much nicer, sold the Lounge and the Cambridge 640. Surprisingly, my Parasound Classis preamp has a sweet sounding mm/mc Phono stage that makes nice music in my bedroom system. This system also has a Thorens tt setup for mono though an Art Phono Plus running on a 12 volt Battery PS. Very you are there sounding! I use the Graham Slee Communicator two channel in my home theater with a Ortofon OM40Gold, very nice! Somehow my nicest preamp, the Monolithic w/PS, ended up in the home gym. It cost twice as much as the others but really just adds a lot of loading options. All these combinations sounded musical when partnered with the right cartridge! I think you might consider upgrading your cartridge first...
     
  18. Robert C

    Robert C Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    :yikes:
     
  19. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    :agree::righton:
     
  20. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    @Thorensman, does yours pop also?
     
  21. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    Try the Lounge LCR III. :tiphat:
     
    Blank Slate likes this.
  22. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    I've just bought one of these as a back up and to test an unused deck. My main MC stage is quite pricey but a lot less than the audiophile brands that dealers stock. I only have an AT95 to test this at the present but it is miraculous for the price. However with my passive pre it lacks gain and need around 3/4 turn on volume - it then comes to life. From memory of owning a 70's Pioneer receiver I would say it is likely better but how much I don't know. One thing is that it is remarkably quiet as far as hiss or hum and I can't hear any nasties from the tiny switch mode PS affecting the main system's fairly high end components. It isn't in the class of my NVA stage with a far superior cartridge and deck but it is surprisingly competent and I can't hear anything 'wrong' with the presentation. With a better cartridge it could well be a giant killer - just would like a higher output which may be rectifiable with a soldering iron. BTW didn't notice any pops so far using the Pioneer PLX1000.
     
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  23. DrZhivago

    DrZhivago Hedonist

    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    No worries.

    You need to give 'em solid couple hours. I experienced greater mid-range clarity and much tighter bass response.
    More pronounced orange glow is the only thing Im missing from the stock ones. :) . I also rolled some of new stock Mullards and there were also good "different" from GL.
    Adjusting the gain setting on your tube pre-amp will also change the sound.This can range from being "feather" fluffy" to "cut through with a knife" dense.

    Regards
     
  24. dougotte

    dougotte Petty, Annoying Dilettante

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Thanks again for your help, Dr. I've been thoroughly enjoying the Gold Lions, and don't feel the need to change anything else right now.

    However, I did also put a Gold Lion in my headphone amp, and that made a noticeable improvement, too.
     
    DrZhivago likes this.
  25. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    probably the single most important thing after your speakers and your cart.

    do some of you think a arm and TT is more important then the cart?

    cart vs phonostage, which is the most important?
     
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