How Much To Spend On A Phono Stage?

I have been using a $129 NAD PP2 phono stage for my Rega P3 turntable. Although it sounds very good, I am wondering if I could benefit from a better phono stage.

I know it would be silly to spend $900 on an Ear 834, since that's more than I paid for the P3 and my Jolida 302 tube amp. I understand that Graham Slee and Channel Islands make excellent phono stages.

Can anyone give me some kind of rule-of-thumb as to how much to spend on a phono stage? I would also like to know what a better phono-stage would benefit my system.

Right now, I'm very happy with my turntable, amp and speakers and have no plans to upgrade any of these components.

 

What cartridge are you using?

 

I'm using the Rega Elys.

 

It sounds like you are satisfied with your present sound. Are there any specific areas that you would like improvement?

 

Bruce,

the Rega 3 and NAD phono stages are fantastic devices. Both are outstanding components in their price ranges. Sounds like you're getting a lot of enjoyment from them as well.

If you want to improve the sound from your vinyl, your next step is a better turntable. You'll get a lot more information from your LPs from (say) a VPI Scout than you would with a Rega 3 and any phono stage.

 

I agree that both components are excellent in their price range. I just wondered whether I could get more out of my P3 with a more expensive Phono Stage. In order to get the most out of my system, I have tried to purchase components of comparable quality.

You are also right that I am getting a lot of enjoyment out of my current system. However, I am always interested in any tweaks that could make my system sound even better.

One option I am also considering is a seperate power supply for the NAD PP2. Is this likely to improve the performance?

 

I don't think there's as direct of a price-performance ratio on phono preamps as in other component categories. The Graham Slee stuff is pretty incredible for the money, and there is some definite progress in lower-priced stuff such as your NAD. In fact, older models such as the Lehmann Black Cube are quickly becoming obsolete because they are no longer competitive at their price points. Sounds a little like the early days of CD players, doesn't it?

What Michael Jones says above is correct, however. You have to look at your turntable first, then your tonearm and cartridge, then your phono stage. The NAD is a pretty decent match for your P3. Switch to something like a Scout, and then start thinking about a new phono preamp.

 

A separate power supply will improve performance. Mostly, it will make everything quieter.

If you're looking for a fairly inexpensive improvement, I'd think about putting a Dynavector 10X5 cartridge on your Rega.

 

It's not silly at all to buy the EAR phono preamp. I auditioned several inexpensive preamps 4 years ago when I bought my P3. I ended up with the EAR 834P. It is an excellent phono stage and highly recommended by many so called audiophiles. I would ask your dealer if you can audition one before buying the Graham. Good luck.

 

I concur with Michael and the vinyl anachronist.

 

You may find that you can get a small improvement with a better phono stage, but the improvement will be nothing compared to a better turntable

With a vinyl system, intelligently spending more on the front end brings huge improvements. First the turntable, then tonearm, then cartridge. You would have loved hearing the VPI Scout in my system with a modest Grado Prestige Gold cartridge. This combination sounded much better than my Thorens/RB300 with a much better cartridge (an AT OC9 for the terminaly curious).

 

I've also got the 834 phono preamp with my rega 3/super elys..... They rock....

-Wes

 

Thanks everyone for your input. I think I'll stick with the NAD PP2, but get a seperate power supply. I noticed a dealer on Audiogon selling a 1 amp power supply for $59US, which is a very modest investment.

I have no doubt that the Ear 834 is an excellent phono stage, but I think in my case the money could be better spent on software.

 

I'm afraid I must disagree. Though I'm sure most would disagree [and what I'm about to say is slightly exaggerated for emphasis . . .] I'm personally of a mind that the phono stage is the single most important component in a vinyl rig. I would recommend looking at used gear and spending as much as you possibly can on the best PS you can find. Of course "best" is more than a little relative. But picking up something used [AudiogoN always has a ton of listings] can be a great way to get something that otherwise would be out of your price range. And you can upgrade from there without losing much money, if any at all.

 

What about the Rega Fono?

 

It seems to get mixed reviews. Personally, I can't comment on it or any other phono plug. My NAD PP2 sounds good to me, but I have nothing to compare it to. That's why I started the thread. I wanted to know if my system could benefit from a more expensive phono stage.

The general consensus (although not unanimous) seems to be that the NAD PP2 is fine for my turntable.

I do value the imput from fellow forum members. I've purchased a lot of excellent products (Rega P3, Jolida CDP and Tube amp, Grover ICs and speaker cables) that I would not have known about, had I not been a member of this forum.

 

I agree that the phono stage gives more of a sound than the TT itself but I would say the cartridge itself has much more to do with the tonality that you'll get off your vinyl than anything else. You can get bright carts (Rega) and dark carts (Shure).

Most phono stages (unless they're broken) won't color the sound as much as different carts will.

 

From stylus to speakers, about 90% of your amplification is done by the phono preamp. This should be given some serious thought. Why should the inexpensive phono preamp be seen as the last thing to upgrade, after turntable, tonearm and cartridge?

I think that you should place more value on enjoyable results than on the price of equipment. If you own high performance to cost ratio equipment, why should their price be used to determine how much to spend on other pieces of equipment? You could look at their prices as having given you the opportunity to spend more on a subsequent piece of equipment.

One way to look at buying equipment is potential longevity. Maybe $900 is not too much to spend if it means that you will keep the phono preamp for decades. Since it appears that you are looking at the Ear MM only unit, you should also consider the Graham Slee Era Gold V. It is favored over valve stages by many valve users in England and Europe.

The Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE is $400 and its already good bass performance can be upgraded with the PSU-1 power supply in the future, if you desire. This is currently selling for around $290 from LP Gear. By the time you have bought both of these, you would only be about $225 away from the price of the Era Gold V if you had bought it in the first place.

As for the Era Gold, its reviews place it in the company of competitors ranging from $1500 to $3000 or more. I am not familiar with the review history of the Ear 834 MM unit.

By the way, if you are put off by Slee's fixed 100pf capacitance, I am aware that he will be adding a discussion of the merits of his choice-- in comparison to competitors' designs which offer capacitance adjustment-- to his web site soon. In any case, there are a very high number of glowing reviews (sourced from an equal number of different cartridges) of his Gram Amp 2, Gram Amp 2 SE, Era Gold and Jazz Club phono stages, all of which offer 100pf capacitance only.

If you want a new phono preamp, I think that you should buy the Ear 834 MM version or the Graham Slee Era Gold V, and then you will not have to question your phono preamp again. Audition them from Audio Advisor. If you are not shocked by the improvement, send them back and keep your NAD. I don't know how much burn-in the Ear unit needs. Slee recommends extensive burn-in, and you should not make up your mind about his units without having at least 150 hours on them. I say this from experience, having just burned in an Era Gold V using the Granite Audio Phono Burn-In CD. More time is better. The Canadian distributor for Slee has recommended 300 hours to me. You just can't do this kind of thing during an audition period by playing records.

But, the Rega P3 and stock RB-300 might be your weakest link. You might start by sending your tonearm to Origin Live for all of their modifications. Then, you would have a greatly improved tonearm which you could keep and use later on something like a VPI Scout, which will give much better performance than the P3. Origin Live can fit a sleeve for the Basis VTA adjustable mounting arrangement. I am aware that there are Rega VTA adjustment devices available for the VPI, but I know nothing about them.

Galen Carol is offering a FREE Origin Live OL1 tonearm (modified RB-250) with the purchase of a Basis turntable. You might consider the Basis 1400, and be sure to look at the Origin Live web site for the reviews of their tone arm modifications. These no longer sound like Rega arms after modifications are completed.

Now, if you want to keep your present turntable (audiophile upgrade-itis is certainly a terminal disease), I have read that the NAD PP2 is greatly improved over its predecessor. Maybe you can get that larger power supply. It should help the bass and clarity. Maybe you could try the Gram Amp 2. It is very cheap and just might be better than the NAD. One European reviewer used it as his reference phono stage until the better Slee units were released. I know this sounds nuts, but it is true.
Maybe "save your money for a better turntable and tonearm first" is the best idea. All of the pieces are important, so buy the very best that you can in either case, and you may not ever need to replace them. And, don't forget the used market, such as Audiogon sellers with very good references.

Finally, if you are enjoying your LPs, try to stay away from catching upgrade-itis.

 

Take a mediocre turntable and cartridge, and put the signal through the best phono stage in the world (however you care to define that!). You will get a very accurate reproduction of mediocrity. You cannot improve on the source.

Take a great turntable, tonearm and cartridge and play them through a very affordable phno stage, such as the NAD PP2, the Project phonobox etc. You will get stuning sound. (Sure, the PP2 or whatever would then be the weakest link in the system. In Bruce's system I would be looking to upgrade that after a front-end upgrade).

I mentioned earlier that the results of a great turntable and arm, used with a good but cheap cartridge (the VPI Scout and Grado Prestige Gold in this case) outperforms a better cartridge with a lesser turntable. It's the same no matter what you do with hi-fi: you can't replace information that is lost further up the chain. Just think it through logically.

 

My experience is in line with Vinyl-Addict's. Although I have no experience with your cart, I can tell you that I have used a P3 and Clearaudio Aurum Beta with an EAR 834, and it was a significant improvement over the NAD PP2, which is a nice stage for the price. I found the PP2 to be comparable in sound to the built in phonostage of the Marantz 2270. I also found the Sumiko Pro-ject Tube Box ($549) to be a significant improvement ovet the PP2--but not as good as the EAR. I think you get what you pay for in this relatively modest price range. Good luck.

 

Personal experience would seem to indicate otherwise. My relatively/very unaudiophile Shure M97xE + direct drive Yamaha TT coupled with the very highly regarded Klyne 6PE [this is an older model BTW] phono stage yields more detail, imaging and all that other babble than I would've thought possible. Upgrading to a Cary SLI-80 tubed amp was eye-opening. No less so the Klyne.

 

I've just ordered the power supply for the NAD PP2. Getting an Ear 834 or Graham Slee Gold V would have made sense, if I were looking at upgrading my turntable and amp. However, I just bought these components a year ago and am very happy with them.

It is possible that I will outgrow these components. After all, ten years ago I was very happy with my Bose 301s. However, I hope it will be some time before I get the urge to replace my turntable, amp and speakers. Going to the next level is sure to cost big bucks.

 

Bruce, if you want to spend a few hundred dollars now, send your tonearm to Origin Live for structural and wiring modification. You might want to do this after reading the reviews linked on their site. You will hear some of the improvement on your P3, but plan on keeping the arm for your next, better, turntable. And, follow Origin Live's instructions to not use the Rega spring-loaded tracking force dial, because it causes resonance in the arm. Set the dial to 3, which disengages the spring, and use a gauge for setting your VTF. Since the modified RB-250 is somewhat better than the modified RB-300, maybe you should control yourself now and get one of those later, or the JMW 9 VPI arm that is available for the Scout.

The VPI arm costs about $700. You can get the OL1 arm (modified RB-250) for $575 from Galen Carol. This includes internal wiring, external wiring, sturctural modification and special RCA plugs. (Mark Baker of Origin Live put great effort into choosing his wires and plugs, but he says that the structural modification is even more important.) Pretty close in price to the VPI. For $535 Galen will sell the Origin Live structurally modified arm with the Incognito internal and external rewiring, also very highly regarded.
http://www.gcaudio.com/products/reviews/infooriginlive.html

You will have to look at the Origin Live site to find the current cost of having your RB-300 modified. It will be less than the above prices. An Origin Live retailer who I contacted in London said that their staff can't hear very much of a difference between the two modified arms, and that the reviewers and Origin Live are exaggerating the difference. I have only heard my modified RB-300 on my Basis 1400 table. You can read plenty of Owner Comments on the web site from RB-300 owners.
http://www.originlive.com/