How well was Double Fantasy/Starting Over doing on the charts before Lennon's death?

I have read a few conflicting reports on this one. Anyone thought much about this or know the answer?

 

According to Cash Box charts that I have at my fingertips, Starting Over made its appearance in the Top 10 the week ending November 27, 1980 at #8. It was #7 the following week (12/6), # 6 (12/13), #4 (12/20), and then #1 (12/27), where it stayed until January 31, 1981. So I think it's safe to say that it was doing pretty well before he died.

I dunno what the Billboard charts said but I suspect they weren't too far off from Cashbox.

Don't know how the album was doing - it came out on November 17, a few weeks after "Starting Over". I read in the archives that the album had gone Gold before Lennon died, so I guess it was doing well.

FWIW, I recall very well that the local stations were playing all of the Lennon cuts from the album fairly regulary in the weeks before he died.

 

At the time I was working at J & R in NYC, truth be told I was the record buyer. I can't say for the rest of the country, but we were selling a ton, probably the top seller at the time. Needless to say, after his death the sales were phenomenal. It was ghoulish and disgusting, none of us wanted to be at work the next few days. Here I was, grieving more than I ever had in my young life, and I had to be on the phone 8:00 the next morning, ordering back catalog from the record companies for the deluge which we knew was coming. And it did. Dying is really good for your sales.

 

Come to think of it, I never saw a single back catalog Lennon album in stores until after he died. I seem to remember seeing all McCartney/Wings titles in stock at the time, but not anything by Lennon, except for a reissue single of "Imagine"/"It's So Hard". On the other hand, I was only 11 at the time so I didn't visit as many record stores as I do these days...

 

I can't remember the exact chart positions in the weeks before the murder, but I believe single and album sold very well, both in the USA and in the UK and EU. You have to take into account that the release of single and album marked the end of a five year stretch in which John Lennon was musically inactive. So expectations were high anyway. Of course it remains an open question if single and album would have reached the # 1 slot if John hadn't died.
On the other hand, I do remember that the album in general wasn't too well received by the music press. Reviews were pretty lukewarm overall, AFAIK, at least in the EU.

 

Albert Goldman and others that have written books about Lennon since 1980 have claimed that the album was not selling before his death or were critical of Double Fantasy but not giving much exact information about how it was doing on the charts. Some of my very favorite Lennon music album is on Double Fantasy.

 

All Lennon/Beatles album disappeared from the stores right after he died, and I couldn't find any for about a month afterward.

I remember it was doing well, but not spectacular.

Evan

 

I wouldn't take Albert Goldman's word for anything.

 

Double Fantasy seems to have polarized Lennon's audience. And I've always had the feeling that many people who disliked the album (or maybe disliked Lennon in general) have always claimed that only Lennon's death could have made it a hit.

My feeling: the album was never going to be a blockbuster (not with Yoko's "unorthodox" vocals on half the record), but it must have sold at least as well as Back to the Egg or McCartney II. And then, of course, Lennon's death did make it a blockbuster. Sadly.

 

'(Just Like) Starting Over' reached a decent No.5 in the UK chart. Then when God took our Winston away, it immediately shot up to No.1. Then 'Woman' and 'Imagine' seemed to be No.1 for literally yonks afterwards. I remember the album was played to, if you will, death and having to endure the Yoko songs "out of respect".

 

One thing that stuck in my mind from that terrible time period of late 1980
was Frank Zappa on that awful "Fridays" show
doing a year end album review.

When he came to John Lennon's,
he said, "Its number one with a bullet....from [name deleted]".

Zappa got boo'ed for that remark.
And , I must admit, my respect for him dropped greatly.

 

Watching The Wheels was also big, but I don't think it would've been a hit if he hadn't died (the lyrics took on an obvious new meaning).

I agree with the above poster--I think the album would've sold well, but not been a smash. It was very jarring to go from John tune to Yoko tune at times.

 

I was actually working two nights a week at the record dept of my local Woolworths at the time. It sold fairly well upon release, but it was not a blockbuster. But, we need to remember that this is by the standards of 1980, when a blockbuster meant that literally millions of copies were moving off store shelves. 1980 still meant dance music, and there were some monster releases - Fame, Off the Wall and Xanadu come to mind. On the rock side, Back in Black, Queen's the Game, and The Wall were all selling tons of copies. I don't have the numbers, but I am sure that each of these releases sold multiple millions. I am sure that it was on target to go platinum, but was not selling in the volumes that other releases were.

 

I hear and read this often regarding that song as a single, but I disagree - I think it would have been much bigger had he lived, because he would have been able to personally perform and promote it

at any rate, one of my absolute favorite JL songs

 

Now, for some Billboard chart figures.

"(Just Like) Starting Over" was shaping up to be a big hit; at the time he died, it was already his biggest single since 1974's "Whatever Gets You Thru the Night," his only prior #1 hit.

"Starting Over" took a big leap from outside the top 20 to #10 the week ending November 15, 1980. The rest of its chart run for 1980 was thus:

15 Nov: 10
22 Nov: 9
29 Nov: 8
6 Dec: 6
13 Dec: 4
20 Dec: 3
27 Dec: 1

The first of these charts that would have measured any airplay and sales resulting from his death would have been the December 20 chart, and that for only a couple days. Based on this chart movement, and that the songs ahead of it in December were fairly stagnant ("Lady" by Kenny Rogers, "More Than I Can Say" by Leo Sayer, the persistent "Another One Bites the Dust" by Queen, which stayed in the top 5 for eight weeks after it dropped from #1), I have little doubt that "Starting Over" would have peaked at #1, even if John Lennon hadn't been shot. It might have spent one week there rather than five, but there's no question it was en route to the top.

My own memory was that the song was a relative breath of fresh air on the radio at the time.

On the Billboard album charts, it's a lot harder to tell what would have happened if John had lived.

Double Fantasy debuted the week ending December 13, 1980 at #12, a very strong debut for its era (pre-Soundscan). All those sales would have taken place before he died. As a point of reference, here are the first-week positions of some other highly anticipated albums that came out in the same time period:

Guilty by Barbra Streisand: 15 (11 Oct)
One Step Closer by the Doobie Brothers: 16 (11 Oct)
Paris by Supertramp: 13 (18 Oct)
Greatest Hits by Kenny Rogers: 15 (25 Oct)
The River by Bruce Springsteen: 4 (1 Nov)
Hotter Than July by Stevie Wonder: 4 (15 Nov)
The Wanderer by Donna Summer: 14 (15 Nov)
Eagles Live by Eagles: 14 (29 Nov)
The Jazz Singer by Neil Diamond: 12 (6 Dec)

By that perspective, only the Bruce Springsteen and Stevie Wonder albums were hotter out of the box.

A week later, December 20, Double Fantasy moved up only one notch, to #11. Again, in that era there was no instant computation of sales; it's quite possible that most of the sales reports already were into Billboard by the Tuesday morning (Dec. 9) when the album would have started flying off the shelves.

Of course, with the full effects of Lennon's death having hit retail, the Dec. 27 chart showed Double Fantasy taking an 11-1 jump. The album stayed at the top for eight weeks.

It's very hard to say if the album eventually would have hit the top. It would have made the top 10, but there was some tough competition all around. One of the albums that stalled behind DF was Pat Benatar's Crimes of Passion, which unquestionably would have hit #1 had Lennon lived, as it was stuck at #2 behind Double Fantasy for five weeks.

 

I remember hearing the album at a party in Nov of 80 and everyone was in the kitchen having a drink talking about how dissapointed they were in the new Lennon album. The general consensus was "we waited 5 years for this?" Then after his tragic death the album took on a new light and was received more positively.

 

In the UK the album went in at no.14 and slipped down the charts for a couple of weeks until his death. The single Starting Over was more successful reaching the top 10. Apart from his 5 year absence, the Yoko side would also have hit sales. The album was poorly received by the music press, I remember it got a bad review by Charles Shaar Murray in the NME, he didn't consider Lennon relevant anymore, and I think that was the general consensus. Difficult to say if it would have recovered if Lennon had lived, it really depends whether Woman would have been a big hit single or not because back then albums relied on singles doing well in the charts. I don't think Lennon's name alone would have sold the album.

 

The album may have had mixed reviews at the time, but not the single, which (coming out before the album) was very well received & a big hit right away. Tons of radio airplay in NYC.

 

This is a great thread for me. Thanks to everyone who has posted info on it. A couple of things that have come to mind after reading some of this stuff.
It is hard to imagine that had Lennon not been shot, that Woman would not have been a pretty big hit. Watching the Wheels as well. Both of those were really wonderful songs. Perhaps those hits would have driven Double Fantasy to even higher sales. A Lennon concert tour would have also driven sales of the record like Wings tours of 75-76 drove the sales of Venus and Mars and Wings at the Speed of Sound. Venus and Mars I feel is a really strong record and deserved the success it had but Wings at the Speed of Sound is a pretty weak record with only a few good tracks and two great singles.

 

I remember hearing AT40 when Starting Over made its debut. It actually began its first week on the Hot 100 in the mid 30s (32?). Not bad at the time, usually a 45 was destined for the top 10 if it started in the top 40. Casey Kasem was very optimistic, talking about John Lennon's return to music after going on his 5 year hiatus.

 

Considering "Just Like Starting Over" had a market window of just barely a month (and the "Double Fantasy" album only 3 weeks) before John - who'd hung up recording for 5 years - was murdered, I'd say those are respectable numbers.

Of course everyone had expectations - how could you not? But John's death suddenly allowed everyone to check their expectations against the realities of his intent... it's the exact same context John would have provided had that first round of promotional interviews not ended up getting published posthumously.

Certainly sales further increased once the world realized John wouldn't be putting out any new music (they didn't yet know about the sessions' leftover songs that would come out on "Milk & Honey"). But his murder coming so closely on the heels of the album's release makes it really difficult to predict how things would have shaken out any other way.

 

I think sales were destined to be good. I was in New York for the Democratic Convention in August 1980, for 2 and 1/2 days, and while there I read in 'the Times' that John and Yoko had been seen leaving a local recording studio the previous day, the article speculated a long awaited new album was shaping up, I wanted to try and locate the studio and see if I could spot John and Yoko coming/going, but I realized I didn't have the time, and it was likely futile; anyway, there was a lot of anticipation, and talk that John might Tour behind the Record, my Brother bought it the day of release, I think the eventualy chart pattern to #1 would have held, regardless of John's asassination...although it may have stayed only 2 weeks instead of 5?? of course, after Dec. 8th I wished I had tried to spot John/Yoko that August, wouldn't have mattered if I failed the album may be Lennon's 4th best album, but it's worth buying for "Beautiful Boy" alone, nevermind the 3 big hits

 

Albert Goldman after destroying EP..said that biography of Lennon would be different cause he "respected Lennon"..!@!@!EW@LIAR!! ..back on track I do remember reading lukewarm reviews of Double Fantasy revisited by same reviewers seeing the light after the murder!

 

I remember reading somewhere that John was going to tour in '81.