Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Jeff Carlson, Dec 6, 2017.
Yes, outlaw is replacing my current unit. I could never get my mac to recognize the 2160 dac.
Yeah, agree - if you want pure analogue, I am not sure what could beat it or at least be a material upgrade, especially if you have a sub.
Would the Outlaw 2160 work well to power 4 ohms Speakers? I know they list Specs for 4 Ohms Speakers(unlike AV Receiver/Amps, that usually only list Specs for 8 & 6 Ohms Speakers). I ended up buying Monitor Audio Bronze 2 Speakers(8 Ohms) that fit my budget and has great reviews and a strong recommendation from a Music Engineer(another SHF Member) who I asked for his advice on Speakers within my budget range. Since, the ELAC Uni Fi-UB5 Speakers despite being on sale for $350 a pair over the holidays(but back to $500 now so would not buy at that price), looks hard to find a decent priced Receiver/Amp to power them efficiently(or only can be done for the 2 Front Speakers), I did not think I would get the most out of them with most Yamaha AV Receiver/Amps under $800.
I am tempted to buy this Outlaw 2160 Receiver/Amp with great reviews by other SHF Members, Amazon Reviewers and on a few Audio Website Reviews as one of the best products for the price in 2017, but I was leaning to get an AV Receiver/Amp(most likely a Yamaha Aventage RX-A770) so I would be able to play any 5.1 Surround Sound SACDs & Blu-Ray Audios or Blu-Ray Video Concerts(like Gilmour's Remember That Night) that I own, when I can get 2 Rear Speakers and a Center Speaker in future years.
I just bought an Oppo 105D Used mot used much in Great Condition for a little over $700, so I could play whatever SACDs, BluRay-Audio and DVD-A Discs that I own, and just building my first system, so hung up on choosing a Surround Sound AV Receiver/Amp(with for 2 Channel Driven at 8 Ohms, at least 95WPC at .o6THD), or the Outlaw 2160 that is limited to 2 Channel, although can hook up Rear Speakers, assume would not get the 5.1 Surround Sound on my SACDs that are 5.1 and a few BluRay Audio & DVD-A Discs that also have a 5.1 option.
Also, how is the Headphone Input and Phono Input with the Outlaw 2160 as thought I read great things about them? Would it eliminate the need for External Headphone & Phono Components, to get better quality sound, as opposed to lower priced AV Receiver/Amps with those inputs(Headphones & Phono)?
Thanks for anyone with some answers/advice to my questions(especially if the Outlaw 2160 can power 4 Ohms Speakers despite being an A/B Amp and not a D Amp). I realize in the end, it needs to be my decision to give up the choice of an AV Receiver/Amp to not be able to play my SACDs and other discs with 5.1 options, should I choose the Outlaw 2160 Receiver/Amp though.
Read through this thread for comments on the phono input, a least two of us have praised it.
The phono input has revitalized my interest in records, and I've been snapping them up on e-bay. never tried the headphone input, but I have no doubt it'll sound nice. Maybe I'll get back on that......
I have no doubts that it'll perform with 4ohm speakers, but also mentioned in the thread is not to run 4 of them at a time.. That said, I'm considering adding a pair of Wharfdale Dentons which are rated 6 ohms, and am wondering if I can run those together with my 8 ohm Klipsch RF25 towers. I need to call Outlaw, and you can do the same with any inquiries we can't help with here, nice people who answer phones, something you may not get with Yamaha.
It's not 5.1, but my system is built for music in stereo, which is what I grew up on.
You might consider buying a 5.1 on the used market, seems like a lot of them at Goodwill locations.
Good stereo receivers aren't widely available new, I tend to think the Outlaw is the best for the money. A well serviced vintage receiver would be a nice choice, but you won't get Bass management and the modern features. This option won't be cheap either, completely serviced 70s Sansui's and Pioneers,Marrantz aren't being given away. Though getting one unserviced and in working order and having it serviced may get you something really good for 600$ give or take.
I do think you could get a good 5.1 receiver 5-10 years old pretty cheap, but I suspect the phono input will suck if it even has one, maybe I'm wrong. A box for such a thing I'm sure can be added. The outlaw is no substitute for 5.1, but for a music dedicated stereo it's really nice. I run a sub, and the bass management is a nice feature. It's a punchy amp that rocks.
Appreciate your time to reply and what you mentioned here about an option to buy a Used AV Receiver/Amp as a 2nd Component to play my 5.1 SACDs, BluRay Audio & Video Discs and DVD-As is a good idea. While having Surround Sound would be nice for Movies, my main interest was for Music to be able to play my 5.1 Discs. I actually bought the Yamaha RX-A681 AV Receiver/Amp prior to Christmas on Amazon on sale for $300(but now back up to $350), but plan to return it, as if I stay with an AV Receiver/Amp, wanted one with better Audio Sound(that the Yamaha Aventage Line appears to provide and the A770 model is almost twice the cost at $650, but decided if staying in that option is worth it. The Marantz Models that look to be good are a little too much for me at $900 and higher, but then again the Outlaw 2160 is more than I planned to spend, but the reviews are getting my attention).
I started buying Vinyl the past 2 years and was planning to get a TT(most likely the Pioneer PLX-1000, as prefer a Direct Drive TT over a Belt Drive option, but did not realize there are TTs with automatic return, and might look into Used options for some of the brands/models mentioned in that thread), but the money I spend on the Oppo 105D, now has me needing to postpone getting a TT for another year, so will have more time to explore options(too bad even the new Technics Models at the lowest end are still $1,700, as that is way out of my price range, but maybe it will lead to more SL-1200 Used TTs for sale if people trade up for the New Technics TTs).
I have read several complaints about Yamaha's Customer Reps, but to be fair, I called them 2 times a week prior to Christmas and the 2 people, who answered my calls were very nice and helpful, when I was trying to get their input on how certain AV Receiver/Amps would work with ELAC Uni Fi-UB5, 4 Ohms Speakers(in both cases they said those Speakers would work only for the Front & Left Speakers, but not for Rear & Center Speakers. I even talked with Andrew Jones with ELAC, who designed the Uni Fi UB5 Speakers on if he could recommend an AV Receiver/Amp in the $500-$600 price range, and he suggested a Yamaha RX-A660, but I think like most AV Receiver/Amps below $1,000, would only work for Front Left & Right Speakers. I think I will be happy with the Monitor Audio Bronze Speakers, but if 4 Ohms Speakers do work well with the Outlaw 2160, it would give me an option to switch to the ELAC Uni Fi UB5 Speakers in the future and use them in the Front and move the MA Bronze 2 Speakers to the Rear.
You do know that you can't run 4 4ohm speakers at once with the Outlaw though?
I'm running a late 70s Pioneer PL400 turntable and it sounds great, and not even with a high end cartridge. I've had it since the mid 80s, never serviced and sounds great. I asked a tech about servicing it recently, and he said "if it ain't broke don't fix it". It lacks a lot of the fancy adjustments of the high end tables, I use shims to adjust cartridge angle, and it works good. I'm contemplating a very moderate cartridge upgrade, though in the future I may get a higher end turntable. That said, there little urgency for it, the table performs nicely, all automatic and I couldn't imagine manually starting and stopping. I've seen these pl400's on e-bay in good working order for around $100, may buy another! I have a lot of well played vinyl, and my tonearm seems to like to track best at 2.5- 3 grams. So if your wanting real light tracking force this table might not be for you. I'm not buying 40-$100+ records, but nice used ones, and a collection built since the late 70s.. Though from the mid 90s till now, it's been cd's, and I do play cassettes as well. I just recently started buying records again, in large part because of how good they sound with the Outlaw.
I wouldn't be too afraid of used gear. I do look at used Technics 1200's as well, the old sh!t was built to last and does. I spent a little over $1600 upgrading my system over the last 3 months, so at this point my plan is more to build money than spend, but I can't stop window shopping.
I think you're wise to buy a good used tt. I have a Pioneer pl400 I've had since the mid 80s that's going strong, never serviced, outside occasional stylus. I had my Denon tape deck serviced a month or so ago, and enquired to the tech about servicing my TT. He said, "if it ain't broke don't fix it. It's a basic late 70s tt with minimal adjustments, likes to track 2.5g plus, which may not pass muster with you. I plan on a minor stylus upgrade and then to start transfering my vinyl to cd, so I can hear less compressed music in digital without the the vinyl degradation, and inconvenience involved in always playing records. (constant cleaning/ turning the record over etc)
Outlaw can only run 2 4 ohm speakers at a time.
It doesn't occur to me that people buy audio cds in 5.1....I always think movies when I think 5.1.
5.1 receivers are everywhere used, but I'd avoid anything more than 10 years old.. They will need caps, and even 10 years is pushing it. I've seen plenty for under $100, but you may want a higher end, higher wattage choice than some of the ones I've seen.
Are the technics 1200's auto?
This will probably be my new stereo receiver for my Polk LSiM 703 standmounts. I will use a subwoofer so the sub out and EQ is helpful. My wife gave me the green light to set up my office as a 2-channel listening room so I'm going to use this receiver art-deco style as the inspiration for my room and decor. GIK acoustics even makes a panel with a art deco pattern! Enough of my ramblin'...2 questions on the 2160:
1. What type of files does the internal DAC decode? Can it play back DSD from a Oppo SACD player connected with the analogue outs on the Oppo?
2. Since it doesn't have room correction built in like the Yamaha R-N803 with YPAO, how would I incorporate room correction into the receiver like Dirac or MiniDSP? Is that what the processor/equalizer loop is for?
That's all for now...cheers!
I think you have to use digital outs to use the dac, but this is all new stuff for me.
I would expect you could use the analog rca inputs for analog outs.
I don't even know what room correction is, but my first guess would be eq settings.
My second guess is reverb settings......
The outlaw gives eq options and bass management, or what is best usually and a great feature for pure sound, bypassing the tone controls.
The Outlaw does have what they call "speaker eq", which is very useful for adjusting a fuller sound at low volumes, or helps a ton on stuff mixed/ mastered with too much treble. I tend to think you'll like the sound you get, if not return it! If someone doesn't enlighten here soon, call Outlaw...
Sorry for the useless answer, I'm an old school analog knuckle dragger, but i love talking about the Outlaw. Someone else should weigh in here. Please share any technical findings. Congrats on getting your wife on board, and I look forward to reading your findings.
Apologies for redundant posting, my post 81 I thought I lost, and retyped in 82 more or less the same thing, too late to delete now.
The internal DAC is PCM only, not DSD. If you use the analog outs on the Oppo, though, you're not using the Outlaw's digital inputs or its Digital to Analog Converter - you'd use one of its analog inputs.
You can put an EQ in the external loop, sure, that's really what it's for.
How many multi-channel discs do you have? If it's an appreciable # then an AVR makes sense. The Outlaw is stereo only and does not allow for "rear" speakers, as such, just another L/R set. I use the 2160 in my 2-channel setup, which gets the heaviest use, and I have a separate multichannel setup for movies/SACD/DVD-A.
Seldom - nice choice with the 105, very versatile and actually has a nice headphone amp. Depending on what set of headphones you have, that would be a good option if the 105 is your source. The one on the 2160 is also solid. I wouldn't say it would beat a dedicated amp but I do not hear any noise and get a nice smooth sound and plenty of volume with my HD650s.
I would guess at least 15-20(between Audio SACD, BluRay & DVD-A and a few Blu-Ray Video Concerts), as most came as part of CD Sets like DVD-A Disc with some Porcupine Tree Titles & Talking Heads(I bought the EU version that had 2 disc sets for CD & DVD-A and not the Dual Disc sold in the US). I did buy a few hybrid SACDs like 'Best of the Doors'-The Doors Mastered by our Host, 'Wish You Were Here' & 'DSOTM'-Pink Floyd, 'Grace'-Jeff Buckley, 'ST'-The Cars and just ordered A Quincy Jones & Jefferson Airplane SACD. I have a Few CD/Blu-Ray Audio Sets by RUSH(2112 & Moving Pictures). Also, first bought 'Tommy'-The Who in the early 2000s that was a Hybrid SACD(actually forgot about that one). I bought all of the Steven Wilson Albums on BluRay Audio separate from the CD Releases. Also bought a few XTC Blu-RayAudio/CD Sets and Jethro Tull DVD-A/CD Book Box Set Sets Remixed by Steven Wilson. Can't recall how many of my Music BluRay Videos(Concerts) have 5.1 option, except know for sure 'Stop Making Sense'-Talking Heads & 'Remember that Night'-David Gilmour have the 5.1 option. Not sure about 'Trilogy'-The CURE and any of the Peter Gabriel Concerts I own on Blu-Ray.
It would be nice to hear these recordings in 5.1 Surround Sound eventually, but would need to but 2 Rear Speakers and a Center Speaker also, so might get the Outlaw 2160 and look for a Used AV Receiver/Amp as suggested in a reply by Jeff Carlson(Thread Starter), that does not cost a lot in the future just as a 2nd Receiver/Amp to play my Music Discs that are 5.1 and Movies, although still considering the Yamaha Aventage RX-A770 AV Receiver/Amp. However the better Phono & Headphones Input on the Outlaw that would not require me to buy a separate Phono PreAmp has me more considering the Outlaw 2160 to start out with(and do not have more than 2 Speakers for this year anyways). Looks like a good system can be put together for around $3000, if choosing wisely(since I got my Oppo 105D Used in Great Condition for a little over $700) and by all accounts I have read, the Outlaw 2160 is well worth the $800+(looks like it increased from $800 to $830 after the holidays).
2160 is still 799$ cost me 844$ w/shipping..direct from Outlaw
One of their authorized online outfits was selling with free shipping, I wanted to buy direct from Outlaw..One small piece of BS to not deal with if I ever have a problem with it..
Wouldn't they fix a warranty issue regardless of which online retailer you bought it from? Assuming it's an Outlaw authorized online retailer of course.
I only have AT M50 Cans, but seem to be good quality for $125, but maybe some day move up to the Sennheiser 580, 650 or other model by them. I realize that you get what you pay for with Headphones(or overpay in the case for Beats & Bose-although Bose I tried on 2 years ago were very comfortable it seems for long listening sessions), and I might not get the same results as you get with HD650s, but hopefully good enough for my AT-M50s.
I had bought Sennheiser PLX100-IIi for portable use like when walking, but the wires went bad only after one year despite that I handled them with great care, but $50 is too much to keep replacing them(think they discontinued that model anyways maybe due to similar complaints, but they sounded nice). I just got KOSS Sporta Pro for around $30 to try for portable use, as went by Amazon Reviews, so I will see how they sound and how long they last. Also have Sony on Ear Portable Headphones just to listen to Sports Radio Shows(Dan Patrick/Jim Rome) at times during the day, so sound quality is fine for less than $10 for that purpose.
Yeah, my money targeted for a TT to finally buy after getting Vinyl of several albums the past 2 years went to the Oppo 105D instead, as seemed like a little over $700 for one in Great Condition Used was too good to pass up. I will get a TT next year though, as acquired most of the Vinyl I wanted(but seems new Reissues keep coming out for those seeking Clean Versions despite being Digital, and I am hoping for more Reissues of 1990s UK Artists/Albums).
I was getting into Vinyl for combination of Sound Quality for some albums compared to Brickwalled CDs(like 'Stadium Arcadium' & 'Californication'-RHCP), or just Reissues that had good reviews despite being Digital instead Analog(Pink Floyd, Elton John but also for the Art Work and was only intended to be a part of my Music Collection. I got sucked into the Vinyl World with the Peter Gabriel Vinyl Reissues(despite their flaws on the early albums) and then went back to get most of his albums on The Classic Records Label when finding NM Copies for sale at a decent price, as I am an avid Peter Gabriel fan and seems most people agree that the Classic Records version are the best, although, not putting together a High Price System, maybe I will not hear much difference between the Classic Records and recent Reissues, but will find out eventually.
I have bought a few Used Vinyl that look free of scratches and might play well after cleaning, but mostly I buy a few New releases like Steven Wilson & Porcupine Tree Albums(although the PT Albums might be Reissues), Grizzly Bear-'Painted Ruins', Tame Impala-'Currents'(the EU version Pressed by MPO) to name a few that come to mind, or 2nd Reissue for the first 4 MUSE Albums, or New reissues(like Pink Floyd albums and got a few Talking Heads & CURE albums) and the most money I spent on one Album was $85-$90 that was for a New Copy of SH/KG Mastered version of 'Hounds of Love'-Kate Bush, but should hold its value well and only go up, if I ever get out of Vinyl, but the Purple Swirl is also beautiful just to look at, and doubt I would ever sell it. I used 20% off when offered by Music Direct to get The Doors albums by AP. Most of my favorite albums are from the 1990s(Brit-Pop or other UK Artists like Spiritualized, Manic Street Preachers or Post 2000-DOVES, Elbow, Kasabian, Arctic Monkeys), but I seem to have bought Vinyl mostly from Music Artists from the 1980s & 1970s.
I realize the Bowie Reissues might not be the best Mastering, but they are all Pressed well, and seems risky to buy Used Vinyl on Ebay/Discogs, not knowing what you will really get with NM/M- Rated Vinyl(for more expensive albums like original Pink Floyd, The Who, Bowie, but maybe some Music Artists/Albums I like are not too expensive to seek out 1st Editions in NM/M-), whereas 1st Edition Japan & West Germany CDs rated as NM/M- seem to be a safer buy(at least what I had bought so far in those Japan & WG CDs), but might look to get 1st Editions of Bowie Albums on Vinyl in the future and a few other albums from the 1970s & 1980s.
I was looking at Music Direct that has Free Shipping, so that is what I was referencing where the price went from $799 to $829. Amazon only sells through Outlaw directly, so that same shipping fee applies that you paid even if buying from Amazon at $799.
Oh yeah, I'm just paranoid that way.. and Yep Music direct is the one I remember seeing...
I actually called Outlaw to make sure they were authorized, LOL...They are..
I think Outlaw told me to call them with receipt # or something to register it, can't remember.
In the end I chose to deal only with Outlaw...
I'm sure music direct would of been great.. but I'd spend the extra 15$ to avoid the middle man.
For a minute Music direct actually had it at 799 with free shipping, that seemed to go away right after I called Outlaw to enquire if they were authorized....
Jack, what does your math tell you the difference is in dbs for 110w vs 100?....
2150 might of been a way to go to save a buck...
Not that I'm really second guessing my purchase, but for future reference.
I've just always had a perception that more wattage = fuller sound.
So wattage for me isn't just about being loud.
My cans are HD 203 Sennheiser, under $100, that I bought for home recording/Songwriting etc.
So it's good somebody who has better phones and ears replied on that issue.
It's certainly worth hearing those in 5.1 (WYWH is especially cool), but they all have stereo tracks as well so you can always start with the 2160 as you note, and set up 5.1 down the road.
You need to double wattage for a 3dB increase. So, all else equal, 200 watts can get 3dB louder than 100 watts. Again, all else equal, a 200 watt amp won't be any "fuller" than a 100 watt one, but will have a bit more dynamic range.
Should be a good match, output impedance on the 2160 is very low and those phones are fairly easy to drive.
I found an interesting feature today in playing with the 2160. You can play music via the usb pc input with DAPs and phones (bypassing their internal dacs). They just have to be plugged into a power source at the same time. I was playing some 44.1 and 96k files and the 2160 had no issues recognizing the differing sample rates and playing the files out of my iPhone and Sony DAP.
I knew about that capability and mistakenly bought a couple USB 2 cables (wrong ones), only type my laptop has...USB 2's on 2160 rear are chargeports, duh...Maybe a cable exists that will function for my laptop, with both type connections.
Is it plug and play or is there a procedure to bypass the internal DACs.
I kind of doubt my phone can do it, being it only has the trapezoid shaped charge port and an 1/8th "
headphone input. I probably need a bluetooth adapter, but I'm not interested in playing music off my phone.
I'm thinking about buying one of these --- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UAKCS6/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
to take advantage of the internet radio feature.
May need a similar USB device to play flac files off my pc? Unless the ethernet unit will serve for both? Which brings me back to the bypassing of internal DAC question.
I kick and scream learning technology, and only enjoy it after learning it....
OK I just ordered an A male to B male USB cable.. If nothing else it'll be useful for a printer with my laptop. Currently only print off desktop.....
Plug and play but you need the phone plugged in. I use this for my iPhone - link.
BTW - my replacement unit's PC usb input has worked without issue. I have been playing around with various settings on Audirvana and having no problems with the Outlaw recognizing and playing the different codecs and sample rates.
Thats what I use for my Mac, actually settled on a solid but cheap Amazon one.
Separate names with a comma.