I need help with ripping and burning an HDCD so that the CD-R has the HDCD encoding intact

Hi,

I do not have an HDCD decoding CD player but I want to hear one of my HDCD's with the encoded info and burn it that way to a CD-R so I can play it back on a regular CD player with the HDCD encoding intact.

I played and ripped the HDCD with windows media player and it has the HDCD logo during playback but I want to make a CD-R of my own with the HDCD decoded so I can hear the music as it was intended during the mastering.

I did notice the difference in playback on the computer but I want to burn it to a CD-R for playback on my stereo.

What programs and other addons do I need to accomplish this? I'm not very technical when it comes to this so just keep that in mind.

Any help will be appreciated. Thanks.

Anthony

 

You can't really do exactly what you want. The HDCD decoders typically increase the bit depth from 16-bits to 20-bits or 24-bits, which can't be stored on an normal audio CD-R, but you could use dither to convert that 24-bit file back to 16-bit to put on the CD-R, and maybe capture most of the added HDCD magic, if there is any. Whether anything is really gained in the end is up to you, but you could try it with one of your discs. It could all be done pretty easily in foobar with the HDCD plugin, but there would be a learning curve. If you aren't very technical, it might be too steep of a learning curve with foobar. Other solutions would probably involve multiple software packages.

Might be time to investigate ways to connect your computer to your stereo.

 

Yeah, it seems like a complicated process especially for me being less knowledgeable about this kind of stuff. I have the windows media audio lossless files on my hard drive. I'm guessing they have the HDCD coding? After this is where things go over my head due to my lack of technical skills of trying to do the conversion process. I tried various plugins to work in conjunction with foobar2000 but could not figure how to get them to work. I can burn to a DVD-R if that would make any difference as far as the bits if being stored on a regular CD-R is a problem. I searched hard for info about this online and had many hits to sh.tv and other sites but like I said it's too much info for me to absorb. I read through the threads back around 2010 when foobar anounced a 3rd party decoder for their program:

foobar2000 now has an HDCD decoder :D

Thanks @Davey for your reply and help.

 

I'm not sure what you're after.

Do you want to take and HDCD disc, decode the HDCD to get better dynamic range, then burn that decoded version of the CD back to a CD-R?

That can be done. But can get a little bit tricky. One issue is that decoding a HDCD creates 24-bit files. Those 24-bit files will need to be reduced to 16-bit files and dithered to be burned back to a CD-R.

What is the HDCD title?

Not all HDCD titles benefit from being decoded. Only HDCD titles that took advantage of the Peak Extension and/or the Gain features of HDCD will benefit from decoding. HDCD titles that didn't use Peak Extension or Gain won't benefit from being decoded and can be played back on a regular CD player just as well as with a HDCD CD player.

 

I have made backup copies of my HDCD encoded CD's using Nero 12 Suite (not freeware, I paid around $50, best I recall, several years ago for this), and it makes perfect bit for bit copies onto CD-Rs using the audio CD copy option in the suite of the program that burns CDs. When I play back the CD-Rs, the "HDCD" light comes on in Windows Media Player and on my Oppo for most all backups so far. I do nothing special at all except rip and burn at the slowest allowed speeds, choosing the overrun buffer always. It really doesn't look like a compatibility issue in the digital domain where this particular software in concerned. I'd like to hear what others have found. (This post is not meant to endorse any product or condone copying media that you don't already own. It's just what worked for me.)

 

you can't decode the HDCD and then rip it back to a CDR "decoded". Even if you rip it to a 24bit file, then dither it down to 16 bit and burn a CDR, that is kind of defeating the purpose. You will end up back at 16 bit. I guess it still might sound better than playing the original disc in a non-hdcd player since some people have claimed that playing an hdcd on a non-hdcd player soudns worse than if it were a non-hdcd disc. idk. seems sort of a waste of effort though. better to get a usb dac and just playback the rip from the computer.

 

Ding Ding! We have a winner!

 

Decoding HDCD to 24-bit and then dithering back to 16-bit to burn to a CD-R in no way defeats the purpose of HDCD. There is zero to very very little harm done in dithering any 24-bit file down to 16-bit. We listen to 24-bit files that have been dithered down to 16-bit all the time on CD.

I guarantee that if you took an HDCD title like Green Day's "Nimrod" and decoded it to 24-bit files, dithered those files to 16-bit, and burned that version to a CD-R that you would prefer the CD-R version to the regular HDCD version when played with a CD player that does not do HDCD decoding. Nimrod happens to be one of the HDCD titles that most obviously benefits from decoding.

 

This is what I want to do if possible. Since I was able to hear my HDCD in windows media player with the HDCD sound decoded, I just wanted to be able to if somehow use those WMA ripped files to be able to burn the decoded info to a CD-R or DVD-R. It's fine hearing the music through headphones through the computer but it would be even more ideal to be able to make a CD-R or DVD-R with the HDCD encoding so I can play it on my non HDCD CD player through my stereo.

The HDCD in question is my cherished, Tonto's Expanding Head Band - Tonto Rides Again.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

The ripping and burning is something I can do but the middle part of the task as far as converting the files and dithering is where I get lost. I'm just not savvy enough when it comes to doing things like this. Just figuring out the various ripping/burning programs and the software/plugin combinations is too overwhelming for me as well.

 

The process can be done reasonably simply.

The way I'd do it would be:
download CUETools (it's free). It contains two programs. CUERipper is an easy to use ripping program that can rip to CUE files. CUETools is a tool for working with CD images that have been ripped to an image file and CUE file. CUETools is also able to decode HDCD.
Rip the CD to an single FLAC file using CUERipper
Use CUETools to decode the HDCD to a 24-bit file.
Use a CD burning tool like CDBurnerXP and burn the 24-bit version to CD. I believe CDBurnerXP will convert the 24-bit to 16-bit and dither it. If not, then I'd use Foobar2000 to do the conversion from 24-bit to 16-bit, and then burn that to CD.

I don't know for sure if CDBurnerXP will convert 24-bit to 16-bit when making a CD. And I don't know if it will properly dither when doing that. I'd need to check. Unfortunately I'm currently traveling and using two laptops that don't have a CD drive. I can't test that right now. I'll get access to a computer with a CD drive over the weekend and test out this process. Bump the thread on Monday if I haven't gotten back to it by then.

 

I do it similar to Ham Sandwich above (I got the process from old threads here on SH).

I use the following:

EAC - needed to rip the disc to WAV files on my PC

CUETools - needed to verify whether peak extend, transient filter, and/or gain were employed - if they were then I decode to 20-bit files. As I understand it, if these were not used there is no point in going further and you can listen to the HDCD on a non-HDCD CD player. Need to go into Settings in CUETools and make sure HDCD decoding is enabled. Select the files as your input, select an output (e.g. your Desktop or some other place if you prefer) and then choose "Verify" as the action, then click "Go". Information about the tracks is provided at the bottom of the program. I believe you then choose "Encode" as the action to decode the files and save them as 20-bit.

Sound Forge - needed to dither to 16-bit and then burn to CD. Sound Forge is paid software but it wasn't too pricey when I got it. It used to be owned by Sony (bought by Magix I think is the company). I figure it probably does a better job than some of the free options but maybe not.

The result sounds great on my home stereo. I believe it sounds better than playing the original HDCD disc but I've never really tried to do a serious comparison. It's cheap and fast enough for me to do this for the few HDCD discs that I own (the cost for me now is basically the cost of a blank CD). So, I don't really worry much about it and I just do this process when I come across a new HDCD disc.

 

@Ham Sandwich
@Dream On

Thanks to all in this thread who took the time and patience in presenting this info to me and typing it all out as well. Much appreciated! I'll have to read through things carefully and try and attempt this project in the near future.

 

This is exactly how such a task should be attempted. And in fact I have tried doing exactly this in the past, and this process works perfectly with only a very minor loss of fidelity when compared to playing the HDCD in its fully decoded 24 bit form.

The big question in my mind is: How would one objectively tell which HDCDs will actually benefit from all this effort since only a faction of HDCDs use the features which benefit from decoding? Is there a quicker way than having to listen to each HDCD in both its encoded and unencoded forms and letting your ears decide?

 

If you decode the HDCD using CUETools, the log generated by CUETools will tell you what HDCD features were detected.

I keep the CUETools logs for every HDCD title I decode. I also copy that info to the file tags. Which is how I was able to make the list of which HDCD titles make use of Peak Extend in this post: HDCDs with Peak Extend

 

The first step is going to be to get CUETools installed. So we'll start there.

Unfortunately, CUETools does not have an installer that moves the files to Program Files and creates Start Menu shortcuts. CUETools comes as a ZIP file that you manually extract. Then you manually move the extracted folder to a location you want. Then you need to manually create shortcuts to the EXE files.

The project page for CUETools is here: CUETools wiki
The download page for CUETools is here: CUETools Download - CUETools wiki

Download the current stable version of CUETools. Right now that is CUETools_2.1.5.zip.
Extract the ZIP file. That should create a folder named CUETools_2.1.5 that has all of the files in it.

The easier way to do this will be to create a new folder named "C:\CUETools\" and copy the extracted "CUETools_2.1.5" folder there.

Then manually create shortcuts for "CUETools.exe" and "CUERipper.exe" and put those shortcuts on your desktop.
Right-click on "CUETools.exe". Go to the Send to menu. And select Desktop (create shortcut).
That will create a shortcut to CUETools on your desktop.
Do the same for "CUERipper.exe"
That will create a shortcut to CUERipper on your desktop.

If you know what you are doing and how to do it you can put the CUETools files in Program Files (x86). And manually put the shortcuts in the public Start Menu folder.

Experiment with CUERipper and try ripping a few CDs with it to see how it works. I like it as a ripping program. It works well and is able to rip scratched discs as well as EAC (Exact Audio Copy). I find CUERipper to be easier to use than EAC. Once CUERipper is set up it is mostly just a matter of clicking the "Go" button to rip a CD and have the rip verified by AccurateRIP and with the CTDB (CUETools DataBase).

CUERipper has a dropdown selection for "lossy" or "lossless". We obviously want the "lossless" setting.
To the right of that is a dropdown for the codec. Most people here will want flac. But there are other choices that will work.
Below that is a dropdown for "image" or "tracks". An image will create a single file for the entire CD along with a CUE file. Tracks will create a separate file for each track on the CD along with a CUE file.
Below that is a slider for setting the compression setting. The default setting works fine. No need to change.
To the right of that is a slider for selecting the extraction method. It can be "Burst", "Secure", or "Paranoid". There is no need to ever use the Paranoid setting. Select Burst mode for CDs that are clean and have no scratches. Select Secure mode for scratched CDs and for CDs that had extraction errors when using Burst mode. Secure mode reads ever part of the CD twice to verify reads, so it takes longer than Burst mode. Burst mode reads the CD just once as fast as it can.

The default location where rips are saved is in the Music folder in your user profile. You can change that location if you want to save the rips to somewhere else. Click on the file name (below the track list) and you can change the template that is used for the file save location.

The default template is: %music%\%artist%\[%year% - ]%album%\%artist% - %album%.cue
If you wanted to save the rips to "C:\CUETools\RIP\" you would change the template to : C:\CUETools\RIP\%artist%\[%year% - ]%album%\%artist% - %album%.cue

And that's about it for using CUERipper. Click the big "Go" button to start a rip. Play around with the metadata settings. CUERipper can pull data from Discogs, CTDB, MusicBrainz, and FreeDB.

 

Well, I tried my "little" I mean BIGproject today (about an hour long) with my Tonto HDCD. I tried using Cueripper and Cuetools but neither program worked. I got errors and it stated I needed another version of the .net framework for which I tried to research online with this error in conjunction with cueripper to find the correct version since I already have one installed already. So I figured hell with it.

I sat and read over and over the various posts in this thread like I did prior to starting this project from those who gave me some direction on how to do this.

Then I thought, since I still had the lossless files on my hard drive that I ripped from the Tonto HDCD using Windows Media Player, I decided to use CDBurnerXP just to see what happens without doing anything else like any file conversion of sorts. So I loaded my files into the queue and I removed the check to eliminate gaps during playback and burned the Tonto WMA files using CDBurnerXP. I burned at the slowest speed (8x) and it took a total of 13 minutes. I did this just to be safe since I had already botched a couple CD-Rs trying to avoid wrecking another disc with botched data during the first couple attempts.

So the disc finished burning and popped out of my computer drive and I opened up Windows Media Player and popped the disc back in and I opened my Tonto HDCD-R and was surprised to see the HDCD logo down by the play button showing the HDCD flag while playing the burned HDCD-R. The sound was less harsh with less bass bloat and more tamed highs. Not so crisp. Plus it had more mid range punch. Less loud as well.

So I opened up another media player, MPC-HC and tried the Tonto HDCD-R disc on that and it was louder and more distorted than the playback with Windows Media Player. The same it sounded on a my regular non HDCD player. It's a good sounding disc even played back on a regular non HDCD player but not quite as good sounding when decoded properly.

I was happy at first but then realized that the Tonto HDCD-R should sound no different between the two media players I used since I had the volume level the same for each player through Windows and leaving the default volume levels alone for each media player.

So now I am thinking the only thing I accomplished was making an exact audio copy (without using EAC) of my Tonto HDCD without the HDCD encoding going through the burning process correctly. So basically I just have a straight copy of my Tonto CD without the HDCD encoding.

Does this all sound right, that I just wasted time making an EAC of my Tonto HDCD?

I also noticed that when I play the Tonto HDCD through Windows Media Player it sounded warmer but had little to no hiss. When playing back on the MPC-HC player it has more hiss and is louder with the elements I mentioned above.

So basically the file conversion process is what went wrong. But if that's so then why does the HDCD flag come up while playing this supposedly un decoded HDCD? I'm kind of confused about this whole thing and don't know what to make of it but I would assume the HDCD logo on Windows Media Player would not have shown it playing as an HDCD? Or should have Windows Media Player not have shown the HDCD flag had things gone right?

I'm tired and confused and done with this now for the next few days. Any comments or further help would be appreciated and I will try this again sometime. Thanks.

 

Sounds like you just made a copy of the original CD. I don't think you can use just Windows Media Player to create a decoded file from ripping a HDCD. This decoded file would have to be a 20 or 24 bit file (a straight lossless rip from a CD or even a HDCD results in a 16 bit file). That is why the posters above recommend Foobar 2000 or CueTools and not Windows Media Player for this job.

Don't feel bad, the HDCD technology is easy to misunderstand, it is not intuitive to the less technically inclined. Most high resolution formats are just the same technology (PCM) as CDs but with higher sampling frequencies and/or number of bits per sample and anyone can understand the logic behind bigger and faster being better.

HDCD is sort of a mathematical trick inserted into the 16 bit CD format that some players or programs (those that are HDCD capable) can detect and then process the data differently when doing the digital to analog conversion.

I have not used Cuetools but Foobar is very easy to use. Just make sure you download the HDCD extension after installing Foobar.

 

Search around the Forum and I think there is a post from Ham Sandwich, similar to the how-to he wrote above for CueTools but for Foobar 2000.

The guy is solid.

 

It looks like you did just manage to make an exact copy of the stock HDCD. You didn't do a software decode step before burning.

First, for the difference you heard between using Windows Media Player and MPC-HC. One factor could be that Windows Media Player using Direct Sound. MPC-HC is capable of using WASAPI. If you have MPC-HC set up to use WASAPI then some of the differences you hear could be due to the sonic differences between Direct Sound and WASAPI. WASAPI is able to bypass the mixer and resampling that happen when using Direct Sound. WASAPI is capable of being bit-perfect while Direct Sound is not bitl-perfect. The differences are audible. Especially when Direct Sound does resampling. Which is a point in favor of MPC-HC sounding better.

Another factor is that Windows Media Player can decode HDCD, while I do not believe that MPC-HC can decode HDCD. So in an AB listening comparison, Windows Media Player would have the advantage when comparing an HDCD encoded title.

I also finally got around to doing a test today to see if CDBurnerXP can burn a 24-bit 44.1 kHz file. It worked. CDBurnerXP is able to convert the 24-bit 44.1 kHz file down to 16-bits and burn it to a CDR. I'm actually in the middle of doing a listening test of the results right now. My test CD was Green Day's "Nimrod". It's an HDCD tile. It's my favorite HDCD title to use for testing because it uses Peak Extend and the sonic DR difference between the undecoded and the decoded versions is very obvious. Plus, I like the album.

I took a CD rip and ran that rip through CUETools to decode the HDCD. That resulted in a 24-bit 441. kHz version of the album. Then I burned that 24-bit version to CDR using CDBurnerXP. Then I ripped that CDR back to 16-bit files so I could play them on my computer playback setup and do a listening test of the 16-bit files against the 24-bit files.

Good news is that it all worked. The CDR created by CDBurnerXP has the dynamics and DR that the decoded HDCD version of "Nimrod" should have. Bad news is that I'm hearing a very slight difference between the 16-bit version and 24-bit version. The two should be audibly transparent. But something seems to be very slightly different. That difference indicates that maybe CDBurnerXP isn't doing a perfect job of converting the 24-bit 44.1 kHz file down to 16-bit 44.1 kHz. Maybe it's because of poor dithering? I don't know. That will require some more investigation. The good news is that the difference is so slight that if the reason for making the CDR is to play the CD in the car, the sonic difference won't make a difference. But on high quality home gear you could notice. Maybe. I'll have to try using SoX or some other high quality tool to convert the files to 16-bit and see if I hear a difference.

For a quick and dirty way of burning a decoded HDCD title to CDR then CDBurnerXP will work.
Process is to first use CUETools to decode the rip to 24-bit
Then drag and drop those files into CDBurnerXP to burn them to CDR

 

Thanks for the info/advice.

 

Thanks again for all your time, lengthy posts with a lot of info. I will try and attempt this again when I have more time and see what happens. Like @vegafleet said, this kind of stuff is not for novices like myself.

 

Besides the Windows Media Player WMA files I ripped for the Tonto CD, I also ripped the Tonto CD as uncompressed wave using EAC. Below is my two rips with the info from properties listed for the first song:

Windows Media Player:

Duration 0:04:30
Bit Rate 868kbps
Audio sample size 16 bit
Channels 2 (stereo)
Audio sample rate 44 kHz

EAC:

Bit Rate 1411kbps
Audio sample size 16 bit
Channels 2 (stereo)
Audio sample rate 44 kHz
Audio format PCM

The only thing I notice that is different between the two rips is the Bit Rate? Is there anywhere I can go from here with these files to do what I want to do in making a CD-R or DVD-R of the HDCD decoded files to hear the music on a regular/non HDCD standard CD player with the HDCD decoded sound? I'm not sure if the EAC rip has the HDCD decoded? Is there any simple file conversion program or dithering tool to convert these files so I can burn them? Plus the difference in Bit Rate is confusing me now.

 

The Windows Media Player rip is likely ripped to WMA Lossless. 868 kbps is the bitrate of the compressed WMA Lossless file. If you uncompressed and converted the WMA Lossless file to WAV the bitrate would go up to 1411 kbps, just like the EAC rip.