If I wanted to record live music on magnetic tape what do I need?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Oscillation, Jan 18, 2021.

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  1. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses? Thread Starter

    In order to make decent recordings in a studio, mic, tape, etc?
     
  2. vwestlife

    vwestlife Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    Obviously you'll need a tape recorder. But for what purpose will it be used? To try to achieve "analog purity", or to purposely add analog tape artifacts like hiss and saturation to the audio?
     
  3. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Lots of money, go digital and save a fortune.
     
    Exotiki, trickness, SonicCzar and 4 others like this.
  4. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff

    Location:
    NY
    Define 'decent'.
     
    McLover likes this.
  5. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses? Thread Starter

    I'm not trying to ascend Everest here, just make a durable analog recording that captures the nuances of acoustic instruments.
     
    McLover likes this.
  6. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    The technique and art of making good quality recordings can't be adequately explained, much less taught to create decent competence, in a few posts in a discussion thread.

    A capable reel-to-reel machine that is speed-accurate, reliable, serviced (e.g., no noisy out-of-spec capacitors), heads aligned and biased for the tape you'll be using is a start.

    You mentioned instruments - plural - which implies recording more than a solo musician. That means acquiring or renting microphones appropriate for each instrument. Of course you can get by with just a couple of all-purpose mics but, depending on the individual players and their instruments and skills and musicianship, general purpose mics can't always capture the nuances of acoustic instruments that you mentioned.

    More than one mic requires a mixer. It should be something that has clean inputs and clean controls, because the baseline noise levels and cheap opamps of the cheaper mixers can sometimes obscure the nuances and timbres of good acoustic instruments and players. Learning the specific strengths and weaknesses of any particular mixer model also takes some reading and, just as important, lots of experimentation.

    You also mentioned recording in a studio. Presumably though, a bona fide studio has all the equipment you need and available for rent to whomever rents the studio.

    Then there's the realization that knowledge of mic placement, mic pickup pattern choices when recording a group session vs a soloist, syncing tracks when doing individual track sessions, mixing while monitoring using headphones vs monitor speakers, EQ, gain control, level matching and balancing, a gentle touch on compression in order to control dynamic range to show some respect for the recording media are all disciplines that take a lot of practice and some not inconsiderable amount of education in order for someone to become competent. If it was easier, everybody would already be doing it.

    Of course there are plenty of self-taught people doing recording. They needed a lot of time and practice to become good at it.

    The simplest way for a complete novice to go about it might be with the use of a good Shure mic (e.g., an SM52 or 54), a good quality cable, a good mic stand with a boom, and a ZOOM H4N digital recorder. It's surprising just how open, dynamic and clean a recording can be made with a simple setup like that.

    Of course the space chosen as a studio has to have zero background noise and must also have an acoustic that is conducive to helping the acoustic instrument(s) sound its best. The player has to be enjoying the sound of the recording space - this is really important - in order to do his/her best playing.
     
  7. AKA Bubbleup

    AKA Bubbleup Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syosset, NY, USA
    You might want to learn more about the philosophy and approach that the Opus3 record label has taken (and sample some of their output) Opus3's Philosophy of Sound Recording .

    They've captured and released some great performances which are focused on rearranging the world (or room) around a single stereo mic to tape (so not only does the the room need to sound great, but the instruments/ players/ voices need carefully positioned (and capable of managing their dynamics (on the fly) to capture a balanced performance. If you are venturing into areas where you have little or no control over a venue, players without the ability to complete a single take in unison, then you're looking at more mics, more tracks, more post-production (much more expensive in hardware, purchase and maintenance wise).
     
    jusbe likes this.
  8. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses? Thread Starter

    Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply to my admittedly whimsical thread. I have a clean acoustic space, devoid of equipment, but free of charge to use. Maybe a good way to start would be with one mic one instrument and the reel to reel just to practice and get my bearings. I have some help from someone who has mixed professionally. Your advice has given me several jumping off points to search for more answers, again I really appreciate it!
     
    Agitater likes this.
  9. rocnred

    rocnred Southwest Desert Freak-a-zoid

    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Nailed it!!!! Right on the money. :righton:
     
  10. davmar77

    davmar77 I'd rather be drummin'...

    Location:
    clifton park,ny
    be careful. your house may end up looking like mine. :D

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Enjoy the exploration!
     
    Oscillation likes this.
  12. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses? Thread Starter

    So any suggestions on a first reel to reel and mic?
     
  13. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses? Thread Starter

    You have now targeted yourself for future questions :D
     
  14. davmar77

    davmar77 I'd rather be drummin'...

    Location:
    clifton park,ny
    :wave::wave:

    [​IMG]
     
    ALAN SICHERMAN and fndrblndr like this.
  15. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses? Thread Starter

    God damn rabbits!
     
  16. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    +1 to the comments by @Agitater . I would like to add, it is possible to record multiple instruments with a stereo mic or pair of mics in the "XY" or "Blumlein" configurations (or others -- there's a lot on the Web). That can produce, IME, a quite natural result (compared to multi-miking), and it simplifies the whole production process (no mixing needed, only 2 channels, and so on). However, it is even more reliant on having a studio with favorable acoustics and on trial and error to find the best mic positions.

    I would also emphasize this requirement: "A capable reel-to-reel machine that is speed-accurate, reliable, serviced (e.g., no noisy out-of-spec capacitors), heads aligned and biased for the tape you'll be using is a start." I worked in radio and TV back in the analog era, and I remember well that analog tape decks needs frequent maintenance to perform their best. (That is one of the ways in which recording to digital can be much less resource-intensive. Given an excellent ADC, one can record to a laptop without cleaning and aligning its heads frequently.)

    It sounds like you're on a rewarding journey. Have fun!
     
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  17. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    How much do you want to spend on mics? I started with Radio Shack #33-3007 and my last set of mics was Schoeps CMXY-4V. In between I had Oktava MC-012 and Danish Pro Audio 4061 (Core Sound High End Binaurals that came with a PS) for stealth taping. Ive been out of the loop for nearly 20 years, but if you want to spend 1K or more on mics I could offer some suggestions. The Oktava MC012 came with 3 capsules (and a -10 dB screw in pad I never had to use): omnidirectional, cardioid, and supercardioid and was a nice bang-for-the-buck setup for around $600 for a pair. Others to consider- AKG C414B-ULS, Neumann KM184. I know that in the last 20 years a number of "less expensive", but still high quality mics (Rode comes to mind) have come out but I am not so familiar with models. On the recording side of things, mics are like speakers on the playback side. They are the most important piece of the recording chain in regards to final overall quality of the recording. For the best sounding recordings, use the best quality mics you can afford. Some mics are fixed pattern (Neumann KM184 is cardioid), some have switchable patterns (AKG C414B-ULS), and some have interchangable screw-in capsules that determine the pattern (Schoeps MK4 capsule or MK41 capsule to screw into their CMC6 body, various AKG capsules to screw into the 480 or 460 mic body, etc). So many options. You need to decide how much flexibility you want in pickup patterns and how much you are willing to spend. Other brands? Microtech Gefell, Earthworks, Danish Pro Audio. And more than likely you will also need a mic pre/PS unless your concerts are loud enough to get away with recording with a dynamic microphone(unlikely).
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  18. Catcher10

    Catcher10 I like records, and Prog...duh

    Record live music??? With Covid is there any live music right now...:cry:
     
  19. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    A comparison of a couple of "X-Y coincident" stereo mics(the capsules in the Schoeps are "vertical capsules"). The X-Y coincident recording technique is typically used in "do everything handheld digital video recorders such as made by Zoom".



    This mic technique relies on differences in sound wave intensities hitting the capsules to produce the stereo effect upon playback(since the caps are as close together as is physically possible). On the other extreme would be spread omnidirectional capsules (coincident XY uses cardioid caps) which use differences in time-of-arrival of sound waves hitting each capsule to produce the stereo effect upon playback. In these mics, the Rode angle is fixed at 90 degrees, while the Schoeps is adjustable.
     
  20. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses? Thread Starter

  21. Bingo Bongo

    Bingo Bongo Music gives me Eargasms

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Live Band
     
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  22. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I am not familiar with either, but just read up on the TLM67 and it looks like an incredible and flexible mic, a dream mic. A matched pair could be used to run in Blumlein mode, or run spread large diaphragm omnis, lots of options.

    As far as the Toshiba's, I see the seller offers a 60 day return but I would want to try them out first to see that they sounded fine before shelling out 2k. Of those two choices I strongly favor the TLM67. You kind of blew me away with those, I was not sure what your budget was.

    Actually my friend (he was Robert Walter's tour manager at the time) was present for the recording of Money Shot (Dan Prothero producer). Lots of vintage Neumann mics(all vintage everything pretty much), and straight to reel. They almost ran out of tape.

     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
  23. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    There are a couple of sites with extensive mic data (mostly FR plots) you might look at. I don't have the info in front of me, but Google should find it. (Many mics have a rising treble, which adds "crispness" to some, but I dislike that intensely.) You can look at the graphs and see if the mic suits your own preferences. Of course, you can always EQ afterwards, too.

    If you're thinking of simple stereo recording, a pair of mics with selectable patterns will let you switch between XY and Blumlein (and other techniques).

    But maybe you know all that already.

    P.S. Found them:

    Microphone Database | RecordingHacks.com

    Microphone Data - Home
     
  24. rockphotog

    rockphotog If I Could Only Remember My Name

    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Maybe slightly off topic, but there is a lot of nice videos on YouTube with Steve Albini on recording and mixing in the analog domain. Very interesting even if you're not going to record music. Albini appears to be a very nice guy and wants to spread his wisdom on catching music to tape.
     
    Kevin j likes this.
  25. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I also strongly recommend the Oade brothers(Jim, Doug, and Carlos). They hooked me up when I first got into DAT(1995) and sent me clones of 10 of their "lesser circulating"masters that I could use as trade bait. From those 10 shows (and over 500 masters), I now have somewhere bw 2500 and 3000 DATs including >1000 complete Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia related shows. :)

    OADE BROTHERS AUDIO Field Recording Experts, Roland, Tascam, Marantz, Fostex, digital field recorders

    Interview with Doug and Jim Oade 10/24/07
     
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