If you never clean new records, look at this.

But that is what I said, that mold release was an *ingredient in the vinyl formula* and not something applied to the stampers. So if stearic acid is an actual ingredient in the vinyl you surely don't want to be taking it out of the vinyl. You don't want to leach anything out of the vinyl. That could only lead to shrinkage or voids. Neither would be a good thing.

 

I agree with Scott and nowhere does Goldman declare there is any mold release applied to the stampers. He states it is part of the vinyl formulation.

It is patent nonsense to think any record stamping company that knows what it's doing would do such a thing.

Most records I have ever bought over about 55 years have been the quietest when brand new without cleaning. Occasional exceptions, of course. But this has been blown way out of proportion for many years. Just another "audiophile" thing.

Doug

 

I'm convinced!

 

Exactly!!! Excellent comments, and I agree!

My following comments are more for everyone concerned ... somewhat in frustration with all the myths and beliefs about record cleaning:
My comments are based more on physics than opinion, so my "opinions" are very strong.

There are countless record cleaning demonstrations using a RCM or hand cleaning that skimp on the surfactant (soap) There is the common phrase, "not very much soap is needed, just a few drops". This is the first sin of record cleaning! There is also the common practice of applying painfully small amounts of solution.

In my experience as a collector, an audiophile, a speaker hobbyist builder, a technician, and as application of common sense, any non-porous surface requires copious amounts of solution, and soap to clean it without abrading the surface. This same common sense applies to cleaning records!

The use of alcohol for record cleaning is common. The stuff that finds its way into the groove, resins, tobacco smoke, Lysol spray, airborne furniture polish, scented candles, cooking fallout, EOC (insect discharge on the vinyl) and mold, are only semi-soluble in alcohol. So it defies all common sense to clean a record with alcohol.

Would anyone wash the car with alcohol? Would anyone wash the car with only dribbles of water, then vacuum it off? Would anyone remark, "the car looks better than it did; I see an improvement?" Absolutely ridiculous, who would wash a car improperly, then be satisfied with the "improvement"? Cleaning a record isn't any different, except the record groove more difficult to clean vs a flat surface.

Record cleaning requires a surfactant; Two great things happen:
1) First of all common dish soap, for example, dissolves petroleum based contaminants.
2) A surfactant lubricates the surface as it cleans, minimizing any abrasion to the surface.
3) A surfactant leaves no residue when rinsed completely.
4) A surfactant such as plain dish soap will not harm polyvinylchloride (PVC) drain pipes and countless other waterproof products are made of the same material.

The rinse is just as important as the wash, and this includes the RCM.. Records must be rinsed while still wet with the surfactant. (in other words not good practice to vacuum solution first then follow up with the rinse. Why would anyone wipe off a soapy car then rinse it?)
I am convinced much to my chagrin, some people will not understand how washing a car has any relation to cleaning a record. (copious amounts of soapy solution with wash and rinse and dry) The laws of physics apply to both. Some will still adhere to the old myths, and still struggle with background noise and distortion.

Thank you for tolerating my semi-rant.. and BTW I do not clean new records with rare exception. I have rarely encountered a noisy new record, in fact they are usually noise free.

Steve VK,
feed your mind with music!

 

Are you sure? I googled it, and it came up as being insoluble in water.

"like oil doesn't dissolve in water stearic acid is not soluble either. To be soluble in water a molecule needs to be polar. Although the stearic acid molecule does have a polar group it also has a long hydrocarbon chain - similar to oil molecules."

 

It mixes with water. The stearic acid based mold release I use is in a water based paste and thins with water. The residue also is easily cleaned with water. It does not separate out like oil does from water. It's a common ingredient in soaps and shampoos.

 

True, but stearic acid will dissolve in a warm soapy water solution!

 

This is what I was told back in 1982. The plant has been closed for years and years and years -- they were in a pretty awful neighborhood in Carson, maybe three blocks from the 405, in an area filled with oil-processing plants, like around 230th Street. One thing I remember most vividly was that the difference in pressing cost between the worst vinyl and the best-quality vinyl they had was maybe 3 cents. But the conversation about mold release compound did happen, and that's what I was told -- more than 30 years ago. I can still remember the way the place smelled.

 

I've posted this pic before, but here is what was left in the bottom of my Spin-clean after washing five new/sealed records (and this is after dumping most of the water out, which I'm sure took a lot of the crud with it):

 

So many viewpoints! But, I don't see why vacuuming can't suck up the liquid better than rinsing. I would think that a powerful vacuum would get the crud out of the grooves better than rinsing and wiping/drying.

BTW, great debate! This is what this forum should be about!

 

I don't doubt you had that conversation but I very much doubt stearic acid was applied to the stampers. It has been said by a few others that stearic acid was added to the vinyl formula. Maybe that is what he meant or should have meant.

 

the key to cleaning is the brushes themselves. Good vacuum record cleaners have brushes that dig deep into the grooves in a way that a simple rinse never could. It also avoids leaving any residue since the water does not just sit on the vinyl and air dry.

 

If I wash by hand, maybe I should use Jet Dry. Seriously.

 

And that's just stuff you can see.

 

Yeah, apparently. BTW, there are some interesting posts here regarding cleaning records.

 

I used a Spin Clean for years and switched to an Okki Nokki last year and love it.

 

IMHO with a wet cleaning on my 16.5 (to mostly RTI pressed vinyl with my Music Matters Blue Note subscription. I use AIVS15 or DD Miracle) I usually hear better detail and more "into" the music even if there was no/minimal surface noise prior to cleaning. I think anything that helps the stylus track better will yield audible improvements. FWIW I'm usually a skeptic when it comes to tweaks, tricks, etc in hifi, but the differences on my system and a friends is apparent enough.

Good points Steve. Here is another old post on cleaning vinyl that I found helpful. http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/a-very-long-primer-on-record-cleaning-fluids.58986/

 

Yeah, this "very long primer on record cleaning fluids" is a classic. I am not sure that I agree with the use of alcohol on records however.

 

A vacuum does pull (almost) everything out indeed, providing the groove has been rinsed. If we vacuum contaminated crud, dissolved in solution, there will be a remnant left in there, or a hardened film on the groove wall. This residue can be very abrasive and noisy.

Here's an experiment to prove the value of rinsing before drying. Drying can be with a vacuum (best) or by hand with a lint free terry cloth by capillary action of the liquid into the cloth (not the best but works if the terry cloth is clean and lint free)

A dirty pane of glass is needed, (four of them) and it should have some petroleum based fallout on it as well as general dust and grime.

1) This experiment is how most record cleaning machines clean a record: On a dirty pane of glass, spray some windex on it, just a small, stingy amount, then vacuum it off. Notice how a film still remains on the glass, This film contains the contaminants that were dissolved in solution, then re-deposited on the glass as some of the liquid remained and evaporated.. Some of the grime is gone, yes, but some still remains, and worse.... since the particles are now microscopic, and when in a record groove will cause hiss and crackling background noises. The original problem may have been numerous discrete ticks caused by larger particles, but hiss and crackles can be worse. This is the reason improper wet cleaning can make a record more noisy.

2) Try spraying a liberal amount of windex on the glass, but no rinse. Vacuum it off. The glass should appear cleaner than the first experiment, but still not perfectly clear. (we would never clean glass like this would we?)

3) Next, spray a liberal amount of windex, vacuum off and allow to dry. Then follow up with a liberal running rinse, vacuum again. The pane of glass should appear cleaner, but probably still showing a slight filmy residue.

4) Final experiment: spray the dirty window pane with a liberal amount of windex, immediately follow up with a liberal running rinse, (like rinsing off a soapy car finish) vacuum off. The pane should be almost perfectly clear. In actual practice, the glass is best dried with a lint free cloth or chamois. However a record groove can not be "wiped" obviously since a groove isn't flat and straight.

This little experiment should help clarify what's happening in a record groove, since we can plainly see what's happening on the pane of glass.

thanks for reading, I know I am being a pane (pun intended)
Steve VK

 

I vacuum. I use a 12 amp flooor vac with a brush attachment I save only for Lps.
When I 'clean' LPs in the sink I only use water. No soap. Run a stream of water over each area twice. Then pat dry with Viva paper towels. (they really are more like cloth) Then final suck them with the vacuum.
Play immediately.
I do not like to clean and not play.
Playing immediately after cleaning leaves them with less surface noise after play, than letting them sit for days and THEN playing. I confess i am certain the damp yuck left is 'taken care of' but the play right away.. rather than allowed to harden in the groove.

And for the original op picture. My vac will suck that stuff right off in a few seconds.

 

It's been a long time, but what I essentially asked was, "what's this thing I've heard about -- molding release compound?" And I think the answer was, "yes, we use Stearic Acid in our plant, but you won't ever hear it in the records." Words to that effect. He didn't give me the impression they were hosing down the stampers every five minutes with acid. In fact, at the rate his workers were going, they wouldn't have had time -- those machines were going 24/7.

But the words "Stearic Acid" stuck in my head, and that's why I mentioned it.

 

That's a great write up, thank you for that!

 

If you rig it with the right brushes it should work. Even with record cleaning machines (with a few exceptions) the actual cleaning is done by hand. It's the vacuuming that is done by machine.

 

I do.