I'm Downgrading My Cart And I'm Glad!!

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by stereoguy, Sep 10, 2017.

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  1. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Thank you McLover, for that wonderful post! :) I dig your equipment. I think its you that has that Denon TT that looks like a Space Ship?
     
  2. AmericanHIFI

    AmericanHIFI Long live analog (and current digital).

    Location:
    California
    That has exactly been my experience with that cart and tonearm. The notoriously low compliance 103 needs a higher effective mass than the REGA has.
     
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  3. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    As someone once pointed out to me on this forum, the DL-103 attracts a lot of folks because of its reputation and relatively low price, but it really does rely on the right "supporting cast" to excel. My DL-103 sounded very good on my SA-750D (effective mass = approx. 20g), but didn't sound GREAT until I added an additional 3 grams at the headshell and about the same at the counterweight.

    Trying to get a DL-103 to work on a lighter arm seems likely a recipe for disappointment. (Yes, I know that some of you have gotten satisfactory results using one on lighter arms, but...)
     
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  4. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Mine is a Technics SP-25 motor with an Audio-Technica ATP 16-T 12" transcription arm. It's in a custom plinth, and has several cartridge options mounted in headshells ready to go.
     
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  5. TimB

    TimB Pop, Rock and Blues for me!

    Location:
    Colorado
    More or less I did the same thing 15 or so years ago. I went from a Koetsu Black down to my trusty Shure V15V mr. Still no regrets, it is either That or my Denon DL160.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  6. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    UPDATE:

    I have installed the Shure M95ED with a brand new Jico stylus.

    I set the tracking weight at exactly 2 grams. Does that seem reasonable?
     
  7. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    What made you choose 2 grams?
     
  8. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Bob.....I chose 2 grams because those old Shures were designed to run in that range.
    1 gram would have been too light, 3 would have been too heavy, so 2 was a good compromise.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
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  9. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Bob, do you feel 2 grams is too heavy? I'm actually thinking of backing it off to 1.50 tonight.
     
  10. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    The manual for the M95 states a lower tracking force. Not sure what affect the Jico stylus will have though. Here's a link to the manual:
    http://pubs.shure.com/guide/Model-M95ED-D/en-US.pdf
     
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  11. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    I thought so, but like timind I'm not sure sure how the JICO stylus changes things.
     
  12. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Tim and Bob: Thanks so much for your posts. Based on what I read, I'm definitely going to back it off to 1.25 grams tonight. The TT is still on my work table so it will only take a few minutes.

    Many thanks for the help guys!!
     
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  13. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    UPDATE:

    The Cart is installed at 1.25 grams, and sounding nice. I *may* up it to 1.50, I'm going to just see how it goes.

    The only issue I had was with my Jolita JD-9 Phono Preamp. I had to reset all the Dip Switches to make it match the High Output of the Shure cart.
    I kept the capacitance at 47K, tho. I think thats right for this cart. Anyone think differently?

    Now its time for Johnny and The Hurricanes - "Stormsville" from 1960 in Stereo!
     
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  14. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Now, you're talking! McLover Approved! And 30 feet wide True Stereo to excite the senses.
     
  15. Tamla Junkie

    Tamla Junkie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Detroit, Michigan
    I don't think there's anything crazy about it. A lot of folks think they are making major upgrades or "downgrades" but it had been my experience in my own setup that a lot of transfers and swaps are more lateral in nature.

    I'm a fan of ancient carts, so bear with me, but I'm going through something similar right now. The Shure M3D is technically superior to the GE-1000-7, and the Shure M-44 is supposed to be superior to both.

    In my own system though, the M-44 is the worst of the pack, with the M3D and GE coming out ahead. Some things the GE excells at the M3D is mediocre with, and vice versa.

    As long as you like the sound and enjoy it, I don't think you're nuts. I think you've made better progress toward finding a better system for you. If we all liked the same Hi-Fi gear, there really wouldn't be a point to this forum. Some folks like Quad electrostats, others K-horns, etc. Some like moving coil carts, others magnetic. Garrard vs Thorens. Leak vs Radford. Fisher vs McIntosh vs Marantz.

    It's the variety that is so interesting to me. There is an almost infinite number of tweaks that could be made to any system.
     
  16. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Many of us have mono and pre 1966 Stereo pre 20 degree tracking angle we want to hear to it's best, and have 45 RPM singles, and well loved records we can't find better copies of or weren't well pressed. As we're often music lovers first ahead of audiophiles. Some of us need less forensic cartridges and styli options to enjoy our music without highly audible out of band surface noises, rumble from old lathes, and other distortions. Sometimes less is more! Not everybody plays audiophile records.
     
  17. needlestein

    needlestein GrooveTickler

    Location:
    New England
    Every now and then, though, an inexpensive cartridge will surprise you. But there's always that "credibility" factor and upgraditis. I know. I have too many cartridges to count. However, my main cartridge that I get the most enjoyment out of is a Pickering XL-25U--a dealer version of the V15 in P Mount form with a DL-2E stylus. The thing just sounds fantastic on my P Mount deck. On my 1/2" deck, an SL-1200, there's a revolving door because I like to experiment. I've go my sites on a Decca--I'm committed to getting one soon. I have to hear one.

    I agree that a Denon DL-103 requires a massy arm to sound its best. I had one on my SL-1200 and it wasn't until I added a 2g headshell weight and the auxiliary arm weight that the Denon had the bass it should have had.

    One cartridge that has really struck me as the real deal recently is the Grace F-9E. I got one of those for a pretty good price. But then I modified a generic Goldring Elan stylus to fit a Nagaoka MP-20 body I had lying around, and, "whoa!" did that sound good!!!! And the headshell I put the Nagaoka body in doesn't even allow the Nagaoka to adjust to the proper overhang, even. It's about 2mm shy, so I have to remount it. But even with the wrong geometry (not such an issue with a conical) it sounds really amazing. So much so that I ordered the MP110 stylus--and the MP100 conical stylus is also only $30 shipped.

    Other great inexpensive cartridges, of course, are the Shure SC35C and the M35X. The ubiquitous Pickering V15 and the Stanton 500, for which there are plenty of excellent aftermarket conical styli, and just about any old Empire. The EVG replacement styli for the Empire cartridges are top notch, tracking at 1 gram just like the originals. You can have top flite sound from your turntable with a brand new stylus for $25 or less if you go with used.

    The problem is, you can really get addicted even to these penny candy cartridges. The only reason they're not super expensive is because they're not brand new. But the guts are the guts--same as what's in a brand new cartridge that sells for a couple hundred.

    I wouldn't even consider using such a cartridge a "downgrade" like your title suggests, because it isn't. But I understand the message behind your title.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  18. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    I used a DL-103R on a rega tonearm with good results. just saying. it can be a good combination. I switched to a jelco because I wanted the convenience of removable headshells mostly, and my vintage audiocraft got frigged up, though it was probably the best of all three arms in some ways.
     
  19. Danby Delight

    Danby Delight Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston
    Ive always gone 1.5 with Shures, but nothing wrong with 1.25.

    The 95 and (especially) 97 are classics for a reason. I've got a 97 on the SL1200 in the living room and have never wanted to upgrade.
     
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  20. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA

    Pretty much the same here. I have 1.63 :rolleyes: when using my digital scale. But when I use my Shure scale I always go for 1.5 ish.

    M~
     
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  21. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Thanks guys. I'm going to up it to 1.50, that seems to me to be just right for the Shure.
    I do like the "Tone" from this cartridge for 60s Rock and Roll records....it seems just right, a hint of nastiness on the guitars without being too much.
    Havent played the Beatles PPM Stereo LP yet, but will tomorrow

    A couple of folks have asked me about the Joilida JD-9 Preamp. GREAT Preamp, I'm running mine with 1960s Sylvania Gold Brand 5751s. I love those, sounds perfect to me.
     
  22. Sneaky Pete

    Sneaky Pete Flat the 5 and That’s No Jive

    Location:
    NYC USA
    Great thread. And I love that it flies in the face of the cynics who say being an audiophile is all about spending the most money and having flashy high end designer brands. :)

    It's really all about the music.
     
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  23. Tamla Junkie

    Tamla Junkie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Detroit, Michigan
    This ×1000...

    If it sounds good it doesn't really matter if it cost ya $10 or $10,000. Good music is a great equalizer...
     
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  24. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Maybe just to expand a little more on that......I think its all about how your setup makes you feel when you play music.

    If it makes you feel "Glad All Over", then it doesnt matter what the cost is, or what the brand names are, or anything else.

    Its only when your setup puts you in "Bits and Pieces" that you may want to initiate a change......
    :)
     
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