In-home demo, my first time. DAC and 2ch amp

So I'm excited for Wednesday night to get here. I've been thinking my next move up in the Computer Audio game I'd focus on hardware. Currently I have a Schiit Gungnir DAC connected via USB and my amp is a 5-channel B&K Theater amp that I've repurposed into a 2-channel rig.

On demo will be an Aqua La Voce S2 R2R/Ladder DAC and a Nuprime ST-10 2 x 150 "class D" amp. The amp made it into Absolute Sound's buying guide as a bit of a giant-killer but we all know how that terms gets thrown about. Regardless, both are in my budget ($2500 MSRP on the DAC, $1600 MSRP on the amp) although maybe not both at the same time. They'll have to both really blow my hair back to justify getting both at the same time.

I'm interested in any thoughts you all might have on the best ways to audition these, in case I'm not thinking of something. Essentially, I plan on hooking up both at first and getting a listen fresh out of the box. I'm told both would improve a bit after 2-3 days of constant play so once those three days or so are up, I'll swap my amp back in and see how it sounds for a few days. After that, I'll replace the DAC with mine and see how I like "my" system with just the new amp in place.

I've been taking some notes on my listening and find it very helpful. I assume I should maybe continue that so I can reinforce my memory which is, admittedly, not that great when it comes to how something sounded two days ago vs today, at least not when it comes to fine details.

Any suggestions or advice (or even any firsthand knowledge of the products I'm checking out) are appreciated!

Thanks,
Todd

 

So I'm on day 2 of this demo and being brand new gear, it's really interesting to hear how different it sounds tonight vs last night with just an hour or two on it. I let it play all night and all day today before coming back to it. It's going to be really hard not to buy this stuff, it sounds really incredible. Incredible detail retrieval, it stays composed even at very loud volumes, it's a definite step up from my previous gear. The DAC still has 80 or so hours to go before I can say it *probably* won't change much after that. The amp, I'm not sure. Either way, it's shaming my old setup at this point.

 

How does the new DAC compare to the Gungnir sound-wise?

 

Great question - admittedly it's a bit early to be making judgments but contrary to what I'm reading about ladder DACs in that they roll off treble moreso than sigma-delta units like the Gungnir, I am finding the treble to be more lifelike and present without being the least bit harsh. In other words, cymbals, some piano notes, and high-frequency electric guitar are more believable, more present in the room but they don't feel forced or too forward. I hope that makes sense The La Voce, so far, is a very revealing DAC even moreso than Gungnir. The soundstage has expanded both in width and depth but that's one area that I've seen significant improvement in over the last 24 hours so I don't know that I won't see further improvement there as it burns in. Being that it's a DAC of Yggdrasil's ilk and also the Metrum Hex, both of which are known to sound their best after about 200 hours of playback, I think I'm in for even more of a treat.

Most of all, the sound I'm getting now is almost relaxed, but still dynamic, in comparison to the Gungnir. Gung would actually get a bit glaring at times and I just chalked that up to a small room (I've treated for reflections, but I still have some and desire at least some liveliness). I was worried last night that the sort of "laid back" nature of La Voce would ultimately be a turn off but actually it's quite pleasant. And this is all assuming a very mild listening level. Where this really pays dividends is when you crank it up. Take for instance the intro to Money For Nothing - on the right system it sounds like pure sex, just recorded And with the Gungnir and my previous amp, if I cranked it up that final bit of the intro where everything is coming to a climax, the sound would smear and you couldn't articulate the last drum fill to save your life. But with the La Voce and the ST-10 running things, even at punishing volume levels it presents that climax in a way that you can still pick out all of the individual parts of that intro, just at a quite elevated level.

Does that help?

 

thank you toddrhodes for the great description of the sound of the La Voce. I am now even more interested in hearing one. Hope you are in for more sonic treats.

 

Nice write up so far. Although I haven't any experience with NuPrime gear, I am a fan of the old NuForce headphone amps and dacs. This leads to my question of whether or not you considered the NuPrime DAC-10H? I've read the DAC-10H along with the ST-10 amp is a killer setup.

 

This is my first foray into NuPrime. I had heard of Nuforce (Audiogon listings and the general curiosity that follows) and was honestly not thinking about a "class D" amp - I was thinking the exact opposite! Something like a Rogue Cronus Magnum, Manley Stingray, etc... But, for the music I listen to primarily, rock, metal, classic rock, electronic - solid state seems to be a better fit. And now with the ST-10 I think I've proven that to myself. It's a very musical amp, the difference between it and my B&K amp are not subtle, I'd dare throw out that "night and day" term we all hate so

So yea, the way this whole demo came to be is I mentioned a want to check out a Schiit Yggdrasil R2R DAC on computer audiophile. I got a PM from the guy at wellpleasedav and did some research. I had to hear it And I'm glad I did. There's something really cool happening here and while I hope to one day A/B against a Yggdrasil, I'll be just fine if that day never comes. I will, however, take a look at the DAC-10H as I'm sure they would let me demo that at some point, for comparison's sake.

 

I have used class D amps off and on for the past 5 or 6 years and have trouble finding fault with them. In between I've used tube amps, Class A amps as well as the most common A/B amps.
Although I use a Nuforce HDP amp/dac for headphone listening I haven't used any of the Nuforce amps to drive speakers. I will say I was reading on the new NuPrime IDA 8 integrated amp, it looks like a bargain in the category of medium powered amp/dacs. Hope to hear more of your audition, sounds like fun.

 

Yea, I saw the IDA-8 as I was browsing around and it does seem like a very serious value. It's not quite an ST-10 but it's definitely close (based on what I read). Funny enough I had myself nearly convinced I wanted a tube amp and I basically went 180* away from that. I like the fact that it doesn't take a ton of power/heat to run. My room is noticeably cooler without the B&K being on constantly.

Some more observations from tonight - volume levels. Oddly enough, I'm finding that some songs that really "popped" on my old setup, even at moderate levels (say 55/100 on my preamps volume control which is a digital readout so I can see the number in .5 dB steps), those songs now are flat at that level. I *think* the overall volume is diminished which is interesting since I upped the power, but I think it has to do with changing both the input and output impedances on my preamp. Since my La Voce doesn't have XLR connections I opted to go SE the whole way where before I was at least going XLR into the Pre and SE out to the amp and when I first started this demo I was going SE into the preamp and XLR out. I decided to just use the same type of cable all the way through. So I think I need a bit more gain to get to the same volume I was at before so I haven't quite got my bearings there.

However, I have noticed that I'm more active on the volume knob now. Where before I'd set a volume of around 55-58 and just let stuff play, now I'm having to jump around a bit more to get the levels I want. I need to keep it sort of quiet because my room is just under our master bedroom and I have a sleeping wife and baby who I don't want to disturb But if I'm thinking this through (and probably overcomplicating it), with La Voce being as neutral and transparent as it seems to be, this may just be a side effect of that vs my older setup. I'm really not sure on this one.

I did play a few tracks from a newly purchased classical download - Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances, Vocalise by the Dallas Symphony Orchestra. It sounds incredible, and I think anyone who likes classical should give it a shot

 

I had an interesting observation with the demo stuff last night. I'm getting used to the sound and was sitting there thinking... this sounds just like my old stuff. I think it's our brains, they get used to a sound and whether it's better or worse, it becomes our new normal. So I left the new amp in the chain and hooked up Gungnir. I don't remember what track I put on but it's one I've listened to a lot through La Voce. Same cables, even the same power cable were used for the Gungnir (the Aqua power cable) - the sound felt noticeably less-focused. I keep coming back to the word sharpness but it's only because I feel like with the Gungnir I have a TV with the sharpness set to 0. With the ladder DAC it's like I turned it up to 20 - not sharp enough to go past the point of it artifacting on me, but noticeably sharper than without it. Just in an audio sense. I listened to a few songs and felt that way. It was interesting, that's for sure.

 

While embarrassing and stupid, I have to share what happened today.

But we'll start with yesterday - being Sunday, middle of the day, I had carte blanche to play as loud and as aggressively as I pleased. And so I did - Pantera, Guns N Roses, Metallica - I wanted to hear what these two new pieces could do when turned up to 11 (or 78 on my Pre1 at least). It was uninspiring. I was getting a lot of edge on the guitars and those seemed to take center stage with the rest of the performers just hiding in the background. I was disappointed. This is also why I put Gungnir back in last night because I've done the "play it really loud" thing with that DAC several times and was never underwhelmed.

So today I'm futzing around, off work to take care of a sick spouse, and I'm down in the room looking for a youtube video on a different problem I was having. Now, I can't get sound on Youtube until I stop music playback - exclusive access is a bitch. And, I really shouldn't get any sound because all of that should be disabled at this point but, nevertheless, I found the video I was looking for and mistakenly hit play. And I got sound. (oh the horror, right?) Well, yea actually. See, in the Windows Audio world - you DO NOT want any audio going through Windows. And if I can play a youtube video whilst listening to music in JRiver, something isn't right. So, I dug just a little and found that not only was my DAC set up in windows as an audio device, it was the default and I could freely change the volume on my audio setup with the Windows volume control (which I've hidden since I don't need it, or at least never thought I would again).

So, after I fixed all that I went back and played one of those underwhelming songs from last night - magic. It was full of life, nothing was too far forward, it was bigger than before and sounded wonderful. Everything else has come up as well, not just crazy high-volume metal. And for the astute observer, my wife was now awake and watching a TV show on the other side of the house .

So, even in digital/PC audio, all is not always what it seems. You guys who set up your turntables and adjust your azimuth and play hot potato with cartridges to find the perfect one? Digital isn't really that much easier, to be completely honest with you It definitely keeps things interesting, it's not just an easy button if you want to do it the right way.

 

This is a whole new, amazing experience. I know it sounds as if I'm being dramatic/exaggerating, but music I know so well just has a different feel, life, energy to it. Also the way this DAC can paint layers of sound in three dimensions IS remarkable considering the price. An example - Rodrigo y Gabriela - Orion. There's a part where one of the musicians is smacking the guitar with their hand for percussion. This effect not only moves from the right speaker to the center, it also moves farther back in the stage as it nears the center AND it travels upward as well. I listened to Tool - Lateralus again and had near constant goosebumps.

Also, and the part I am most happy about (literally, this was a dealbreaker if I didn't figure this out) - moderate level listening has all the energy and liveliness I require. I generally can't listen "loud" so MOST of my time spent with the system is at very normal, almost low levels. This was sorely lacking prior to figuring out the problem but now, it's better than what I had become accustomed to.

 

Is your source always through your computer? If so, I'd think you'd want the level settings on the computer always at maximum. You wouldn't want any attenuation done in the digital domain of your computer.

 

Correct, the volume issue is how I knew something was amiss. My issue was the digital equivalent of running a turntable into the CD input on a receiver. My audio system is the PC as a source only.

 

Your method of testing this new equipment is thorough and your narrative is very interesting to read. Please keep posting as you progress.

 

Thank you! I'll try to put it in fewer words this time but I was explaining to a friend of mine that this has been a tough situation so far. It's damn stressful to be honest. I am demoing gear that I consider high-end, replacing decidedly lower-tier stuff. So, there is most definitely a bias that creeps in like "well this stuff HAS to be at least different, and probably better than what I have." Expectation bias is very real. I knew in my head and in my heart that what I was hearing wasn't special in context. I mean don't get me wrong, it had its plusses over my old gear but not such that it justifies the price tag. But I made up my mind it was better. And even doing direct A/B testing proved that out. Funny enough, the old equipment did NOT suffer from the same handicap, just the Aqua gear (based on the driver and how Windows was handling it).

So, I was basically having to admit to myself that I had hit some sort of ceiling with my system. This had me questioning ALL KINDS of things - is all that I read just made up BS to make people feel better about emptying their wallets? Could a simple set of DIY speakers in a small room with room treatments really be all one should do to obtain SQ that is high enough that even substantial jumps up the chain in gear make only subtle changes? Were my ears just not that good?

So yea, stressful. Good stress, mind you, not the kind that results in "how am I going to put a meal on the table tonight?" No, this is first world problem stress and I'm aware of that. But still, being that this stuff is such a passion for me, I was, to be honest, completely disappointed.

So, having found my error today and hearing exactly what this stuff is capable of, it restores my confidence. It also tells me I have a room and speakers that will scale to just about any height I put before them in terms of hardware. Exciting indeed!

 

Well it's official, I'm keeping both pieces. I'd say these will tide me over for a long time to come but, where's the fun in that? I've done all this in the spirit of discovery and will always be on the lookout for new ways to improve the sound. I feel like I have a much better idea for exactly what this system can deliver. Now if only I could share it with someone, that's the worst part! Simply not many people around here care much for this kind of stuff.

I did make another change tonight and so far, I'm impressed. I bought a Paul Pang Audio USB card (V2). It was $120 and I bought the adapter for external power when I get around to that aspect of all this. Initial observations are better soundstage, it's deeper and more well-defined, but not some quantum leap here, though enough to "see" the difference. It also seems to have pushed things back further, from the motherboard the sound was a little forward still. Detail is another notch above where it was, but that's mostly due to better instrument separation, it's once again another level of making very dynamic moments in music seem like multiple threads instead of coalescing into one big tapestry. I hope that makes sense, it's easier to focus on one instrument in the midst of four or five other things going on, in other words.

 

And now this is a little disappointing - the ST-10 amp appears to be dead after only about 10 or 11 days. Granted it was on for quite a bit of that time, but so has my old B&K and it never broke a sweat. I checked the fuse, it looks fine, haven't tested it yet but I'm doubting it's that simple.

With that said, the B&K is back in the system now and the difference is nothing short of astonishing. Two amps shouldn't sound so different but they do. The B&K is thin and lifeless in comparison. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't sound "bad" or anything, it just has no personality at all. I shall patiently await the ST-10 replacement unit

Todd

 

The brand new ST10 died already? Disappointing? That's an understatement in my book.

Hopefully they'll replace it with a new one. It always floors me when I read about a new piece of equipment crapping out within the first few weeks, but then again, if they're going to fail it's better tho happen early. I have been extremely lucky I guess as I can't recall the last piece of gear I've had fail. And, I've owned 4 different Nuforce pieces with zero trouble.

Now with the B&K back in service you can get a feel for what the Nuprime did and didn't do for your system.

 

Yea, a brand new one will go out tomorrow, I'll have it in a couple days. I'm willing to admit (especially having worked in and around technology for a dozen years) that stuff happens and I may have had one with a dud part in it. But, if I get a second one that goes bad - I'll have to find an alternative. Ordinarily I would open it up and poke around but being SO new, I'm just going to take a new one and move on. And I agree with you - I've always said that most electronics (save for TV's IME) will either fail when close to new or provide years of trouble-free use. This is my first bad part in audio that I can recall, so hey, law of averages and all that.